feedback for "Shot Down"

  1. An excellent piece. Thanks for concluding with an opinion on the non-vaccinators. I wish I were bold enough to voice my own opinion in this regard. Like many moms, I questioned the whole thing but ultimately concluded vaccines were the way to go. Unfortuntately i know others who feel differently. I have been tactful about it, but your piece points out that they're putting my child at risk. Indeed, vaccines are not a conspiracy. And I think vaccine-naysayers should admit that it's quite the luxury to refuse vaccinations in the developed world. Ever seen a kid who's had polio?

    posted by : crabmommy on 3/26/2007 at 4:18 PM Flag For Abuse

  2. crabmommy - how is your child at risk?  your child is vaccinated.  it's the other non-vaccinated children at risk.  am i missing something.   we vaccinated our son.  i was a bit apprehensive about the autism theories, but we felt that it was important to vaccinate.

    posted by : k1 on 3/26/2007 at 4:49 PM Flag For Abuse

  3. Two matters concern us about vaccines and these issues were not mentioned in this article: 1) Why are so many vaccines in the States administered to children under the age of one? From what I understand, most other countries wait at least a year to do most vaccines. I can't help but wonder if convenience is trumping safety in this case...2) There is some concern about whether multiple vaccinations given to children under the age of one can lead to increased cases of reactions like eczema... 

    Has any one else heard about these two concerns, I wonder?

    posted by : gg on 3/26/2007 at 4:58 PM Flag For Abuse

  4. it's a shame you come across as arrogant from time to time in this piece... but that is your right. just like it is a non-vaccinating familys' right to decide what is best for themselves. some evolutionists argue that disease is a way to evolve and weed out the dna that doesnt work with current conditions... and that as tragic as that can be at times, some times you have to let go and let god. i don't know exactly how i feel about that, but it certainly is something interesting to consider. i have made my final decision on vaccinations, but i agree with Brad that it is an intuitive thing to not want to inject poison into a newborn, atleast give the body some time to develop it's own immune system.  when i gave birth to my daughter and they asked me if i wanted to do the hep B vax, i passed, and the nurse said "oh that's okay, the only reason they do them at this age is because they figure the uninsured, minorities, and lazy people wont come back later to get them." we plan  to travel, so i might consider to vax for those "exotic" locations might get the better of us, but i can't help but feel that that would  be selfish on our part, when all the locals don't have that privelage. 

    posted by : Barbara on 3/26/2007 at 5:02 PM Flag For Abuse

  5. k1 -- did you read the article?  Vaccination works only if a critical mass of the population is vaccinated, thus preventing epidemics as disease has no vector to spread.  Vaccination is not always 100% effective.  So if enough folks opt out, disease will have more potential hosts -- more jumping off points.  This puts the unvaxed and the vaxed at risk.

    posted by : shmoo on 3/26/2007 at 5:04 PM Flag For Abuse

  6. also, some vax are made with animal parts, and for certain religions, this is a big no-no... i guess its a bit un-p.c. to put someone down for their religious beliefs, eh? perhaps a bit more compassion from the pro-vax activists?

    posted by : Barbara on 3/26/2007 at 5:05 PM Flag For Abuse

  7. Awesome article.  I was almost scared out of vaccinating my daughter, but decided in the end to go ahead and do it.  I can't say my reasoning at the time was purely logical- it really come down to: I was more scared of the diseases that were spreading where I lived in NW FL right after Katrina hit, than I was scared of the (seemingly) unrealistic potential side-effects of the vaccines.  My chiropractor gave me a buttload of info from the anti-vaccine camp and told me that he was "one of the most educated people in the country" on the subject.  Now I love going to the chiropractor, but I just don't think that chiropractic care saves us from every conceivable disease; and because I knew he was such a natural-living/chiropractic care/don't go to the doctor/have your babies at home using midwives kind of zealot, I discounted his theory as less fact and more opinion.  And the more I read about vaccines, the more confident I feel that I made the right decision.  The reading materials and CDs he gave me were almost entirely anecdotal with no real solid scientific proof.  It sucked that I had to get my daughter vaccinated with that fear hanging over my head, but she is totally vaccinated and perfectly healthy.  And any more children I have will be vaccinated as well. 

    posted by : mapgirl27 on 3/26/2007 at 6:00 PM Flag For Abuse

  8. Barbara, at the risk of sounding intolerant (which I am), no, I don't give a fig for respecting religious beliefs when it comes to what's good for the bulk of our kids. I am, in fact, rather tired of religious tolerance. Intolerance is the new tolerance, I say. Look what religion is doing to our world...Okay, I realize this isn't the forum for THAT can of worms, but to reiterate a relevant point: if vaccinations contain animal derivatives or whatever and some religious person objects to that, I feel no pain in dissing that person. Not at the expense of my child. The author of this article has shown we need critical mass to make vaccinations effective, so for God's sake (for our children's sake) let's keep God out of it.

    posted by : crabmommy on 3/26/2007 at 6:40 PM Flag For Abuse

  9. I was also pressured and a little scared from all the hyped-up information out there that was anti-vac. After thoroughly researching the data (from scientific journals, not parenting blogs) we decided that the risks of contracting a disease far outweighed the potential side effects. I guess if you plan on sticking around with your kids in the cities and suburbs of America, non-vac might be the way to go for you and your family. Fortunately, we plan on exposing our family to different cultures and experiences their entire life. Having traveled extensively all over India, China, Southeast Asia and Central America, I have seen kids and adults with the very dehabilitating diseases that the non-vac contingent want to tell you aren't a risk. Thanks to my vaccinations and those given to my infant, we were able to explore Borneo and climb Southeast Asia's highest peak with our four month old. Although she won't remember the experience, we're installing in her a love of culture, history and adventure that she can take with her all her life. Barbara, do you really think we should stop developing drugs, stem cell research and advanced medical technologies because the human race should just "evolve" to be able to withstand diseases? I find it hard to believe that you would watch your child die and calmly come to the conclusion that it was best to "let god." Its easy to have this perspective when you live in the US and take of all the advantages that come with it. Most people in the world don't have that luxury.    

    posted by : ndeterin on 3/26/2007 at 8:55 PM Flag For Abuse

  10. It's a bit naive to believe that you are in a safe little bubble if you live in the U.S. and everyone around you is vaccinated. We live in the jet age so there's little guarantee that you are safe because intercontinental travel is an equal opportunity infectious agent. You don't have to go where disease lives because it already comes here thanks to modern transport, especially if you live in a dense urban environment.

    posted by : HDCS on 3/27/2007 at 1:43 AM Flag For Abuse

  11. The whooping cough problem in Colorado should be a wake-up call for the non-vax parents--and I have to say that if you go back a generation or two, you'll find that most parents/grandparents are grateful that vaccinations were available. My husband's grandmother (who is 80) had 5 kids, and the polio vaccine was available only for the youngest (the others were too old). She told me about worrying every summer that one (or all) of her kids would catch polio and die or be crippled for life. How about measles, mumps, and rubella? Obviously over thousands of years of evolution, our immune systems DID NOT evolve to handle these diseases--what makes these non-vax parents think that their children't immune system is different or special?? These non-vax parents might want to read a little history--because if they think their kids are "safe" because the rest of us "sheeple" get our kids vaccinated, they're likely to get a terrible surprise when their children get sick (or God forbid, die) from an entirely preventable disease. These parents may think they're experts because they've done research (with a confirmation bias, no less--it's easy to find information that backs up whatever you want to believe, and easy to ignore what you don't agree with), but I seriously doubt it. As Alexander Pope said "A little learning is a dangerous thing."

    posted by : katydidmama on 3/27/2007 at 9:16 AM Flag For Abuse

  12. Liza is right on when she says that the current anti-vaccination trend is the result of our good fortune in living in a time when we don't stare debilitating disease in the face every day. I am amazed by Barbara's comments above that disease is a way to weed out weak dna ... sure, it does have that effect, but for most of human history the average life span was half what it is today. Do you really want to chop your life in half in order to live "naturally"? let's face it, we have all left the natural life far behind and for good reason -- prehistoric life for homosapiens was dramatically more violent, disease ridden and scary. though liberals have been loath to admit it for a few decades now, our lives are dramatically better than they would have been 10,000 years ago, or than they would be today in the absence of modern science. It wasn't easy to develop those vaccines, folks, it took a few hundred years of scientific progress. A little gratitude is in order. And with that gratitude, the good sense to protect ourselves, our chidlren, and each other from debilitating diseases.

    posted by : Papaganoose on 3/27/2007 at 9:47 AM Flag For Abuse

  13. shmoo - i did read the article.  perhaps crabmommy was right that her child is being put at some risk.  but i think the risk that crabmommy's child is at is pretty insignificant when compared to the risk that the unvaccinated children are at.  and that's really what I was getting at.   and yes - i understand that to eradicate a disease and keep it eradicated, everyone needs to get vaccinated.   parents who don't vaccinate are basically freeloaders.  they are making selfish choices that they now feel that they have the luxury to make because generations before them understood that the risk involved in vaccinating is MUCH LOWER than the risk involved in not vaccinating.   further, people who think that now that diseases are eradicated the risk equation has changed are foolish.  it only seems that way because EVERYONE IS VACCINATED.  if we stop vaccinating, those diseases will come back.         

    posted by : k1 on 3/27/2007 at 1:35 PM Flag For Abuse

  14. Have we all lost all sense of history. My mother survived polio, her sister suffered from a heart condition caused by German measles her whole life. They did not grow up in a ghetto but rather in a large house with servants in the countryside of Quebec. My brother was a polio pioneer, one of the first children to be able to enjoy the summer without the haunting specter of infirmity and death. As a society we have chased smallpox from the earth, a disease known as the scourge that disfigured and killed paupers and kings for centuries. Communal immunity relies on the concept of herd immunity, we could protect children who were to sickly or legitimately allergic buy surrounding them with immune children, now they are left at risk. So one can thank all the "sheeple" who keep your children safe.   England now enjoys regular outbreaks of whooping cough.The revolution has taken hold there.   We in the west have achieved what was once unimaginable, infant and childhood mortality rates so low that we cant even imagine that the dreaded diseases of the past are real. This was not done with wishful thinking and organic vegetables.   Please excuse the drama, this is a subject near to my heart.      

    posted by : Ethnedad on 3/27/2007 at 1:47 PM Flag For Abuse

  15. An excellent book on vaccinations not mentioned in the article: Vaccinations: A Thoughtful Parent’s Guide by Aviva Jill Romm. She sticks to the facts and refrains from making value judgments. At the end of this book, I had no idea whatsoever if the author vaccinated her kids or not. I walked away from reading this book convinced to vaccinate on a non-standard schedule. Another woman I know read it and decided to not vaccinate, and another decided to follow the CDC schedule. It is not a persuasive book, but it is very informative. It would answers all of the questions I’ve seen posted in this comments section. For example, the CDC vaccinates children under 1 year and bunches up vaccinations in order to increase the incidence of vaccination. Also, just because you have received the vaccination, you are not necessarily immune. I know that this is a very heated issue, which is why I really appreciated reading Ms. Romm’s unemotional text.

    posted by : Adelheid on 3/27/2007 at 2:25 PM Flag For Abuse

  16. My slightly quirky, quite intelligent daughter  had an unknown immune dysfunction at time of vaccination with the MMR and Varivax- both live virus vaccines. 2 weeks later she had seizures, fever, and an odd rash. Two weeks after that, she stopped talking, began spinning, grinding her teeth, suffered facial tics, ignored all external stimuli, and began self injurious behavior. 3 months later, she was diagnosed with severe autism. Then she stopped digesting her food, and lost weight. Then she stopped growing. Thanks to the help of her immunologist, and holistic pediatrician who spotted the immune dysfunction, she started gaining weight, and is finally growing again, after a 12 month stall at 2 yrs of age. She making wonderful progress, although she is now only 3, we don't know the future. She is 39 mos, and has receptive and expressive language skills of a 14 month old.   Both the NIH (   Do you know how many doctors vaccinate sick kids, or while on antibiotics or steroids? When they immune system is compromised? Most immune deficiencies go 9 yrs before a diagnosis is made.   Consequently, my daughter has no antibodies to many of the vaccines she received. Her immune system could not produce the antibodies. She also has pituitary damage, most likely caused by an infection in the brain.   And considering how many children have immune deficiency, dysfunction, or may be sick at time of vaccination, it is stupid that we give them 4 live viruses at once.   The vaccines won't work for them, anyway. They won't produce the antibodies, and build a resistance.   My daughter was one of the lucky ones, as we found this was all related to her immune function quite early, and began the right medications and supplements to help build her immune system.   Our country does not have widespread outbreaks. A much larger number of children recover from measles than autism. And I bet, that the number of autistic children that drown, or die in other related accidents, quite greatly exceeds the number of children in our country that die from measles annually.   I am not anti vaccination, I prefer good doctors, and accurate diagnosing of immune deficiencies, and I prefer single injections, and a move from live virus vaccinations, to inactivated viruses. We have the science to make a change. We already did with the OPV- oral polio vaccine, just 6 yrs ago, as it was causing polio in children with immune deficiencies, in fact, over the last decade, the only cases of polio in the US were from the vaccine. We now use the IPV- inactivated polio vaccine.   Please, RESEARCH before you vaccinate, and NEVER vaccinate a sick child.

    posted by : monica on 3/27/2007 at 3:27 PM Flag For Abuse

  17. Not sure why this was left out  

    Both the NIH   An email I received from the CDC explained this is because the viruses can over replicate and cause encephalitis, or death.      

    posted by : monica on 3/27/2007 at 3:34 PM Flag For Abuse

  18. sorry I am new to this forum, and trying to figure out how to include links It seems to be leaving them out) as the information from the NIH and CDC is important for parents to read and make an informed decision about vaccination.  

    Both the NIH and the CDC state children with compromised immune systems, due to current illness, or immune deficiencies, or family history of immune deficiencies, should not be vaccinated with live virus vaccinations, such as the MMR   An email from the CDC explained this is because the viruses can over replicate and cause encephalitis, or death.  
       

    posted by : monica on 3/27/2007 at 3:44 PM Flag For Abuse

  19. Sorry, for some reason, I cannot include links, no mater how hard I try. A quick google search for -MMR + VIS-  (vaccine information statement) or -Chickenpox vaccine + VIS- will pull up the vaccine information sheets from the CDC for both, these are the only live virus vaccines currently in our pediatric schedule.   These statements are so important to read BEFORE vaccinating, not to just be taken home with a screaming- just vaccinated toddler.   I wish every day I had read these first.

    posted by : monica on 3/27/2007 at 3:52 PM Flag For Abuse

  20. This is a very good article, far more even-handed than most accounts. I am glad I vaccinated all my children before this controversy really came up. It would have caused me a great deal of anguish because there are several people on the autism spectrum in my extended family, which has caused so much heartbreak over the years.

    In spite of the Medical Experts' publicity campaign against any connection between vaccines and autism, the parents of autistic children are massively convinced by the anecdotal evidence--i.e. evidence from the real world. (Have medical experts been wrong before? Remember doctors' advising pregnant women to have x-rays, thalidomide, DES, and now ultrasound? Remember their advice to put your sleeping infant on its belly? Remember frontal lobotomies? And ulcers' being caused by Type A personality?)

    I don't know any intelligent people who don't believe in vaccines against truly dangerous diseases like polio and smallpox. My own sister almost died from whooping cough. But from there to going down the slippery slope of inoculating infants with far more diseases than one person would ever get in a lifetime, and often with multiple vaccines given in one go, makes me very uncomfortable.

    How many of these multiple-vaccine proponents are aware that the families of autistic children present a much higher than normal rate of auto-immune disorders? Here is just one study on that, but people who work with the autistic have been aware of it for at least thirty-five years. If I were vaccinating my children today, I would insist on no live virus and on no multiple vaccines, and if possible hold off the vaccinations till my child was walking and talking.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10385847&dopt=Abstract



    posted by : JaneK on 3/27/2007 at 10:13 PM Flag For Abuse

  21. I'm shocked at how many people think this is a well-written, thoughtful piece of journalism. It's riddled with vague statements, and is woefully lacking in attribution. And with any quick Google search you can see that in her reporting of some numbers, such as the polio data,  she left out important information, like   And could she at least acknowledge the possiblity that there is a relationship between the ever-increasing numbers of shots on the required list, the money the drug companies stand to gain by adding to this list. And what about the US Federal Court Court of Claims' "Vaccine Court" where parents can file claims of injury for their children who are damaged by vaccines? Why are taxpayers paying these claims and not drug companies? Why shouldn't parents be at least suspicious when they see things like this happening?   And I'm not even going to bother with her HiB numbers. Okay, I will bother. Hib is incredibly common, virtually everyone over 30 has had it, probably multiple times, so her numbers that 1 in 200 people get meningitis just don't add up. Perhaps if you looked at the small number of cases where Hib actually gets   It seems her real point is that parents make decisions based on fear and with the firm belief that they know what's best for their children, or at least they don't want to be told what's best and be forced to comply. I think there's a real story there to be investigated. What's ironic is that the author doesn't acknowledge her own fear and how she's found numbers and "facts" that make her feel safe in her own parenting decisions, right or wrong.

    posted by : portlandwriter on 3/28/2007 at 1:56 AM Flag For Abuse

  22. Babble, your system deletes out things in italics. That's very, very annoying. Here is my post without the system deletes:   I'm shocked at how many people think this is a well-written, thoughtful piece of journalism. It's riddled with vague statements, and is woefully lacking in attribution. And with any quick Google search you can see that in her reporting of some numbers, such as the polio data,  she left out important information, like *most people who get polio don't have symptoms and most who get paralytic polio do recover.* And could she at least acknowledge the possiblity that there is a relationship between the ever-increasing numbers of shots on the required list, the money the drug companies stand to gain by adding to this list. And what about the US Federal Court Court of Claims' "Vaccine Court" where parents can file claims of injury for their children who are damaged by vaccines? Why are taxpayers paying these claims and not drug companies? Why shouldn't parents be at least suspicious when they see things like this happening?   And I'm not even going to bother with her HiB numbers. Okay, I will bother. Hib is incredibly common, virtually everyone over 30 has had it, probably multiple times, so her numbers that 1 in 200 people get meningitis just don't add up. Perhaps if you looked at the small number of cases of Hib that get reported, you will find that 1 in 200 lead to minigitis (Hib itself is *not* meningitis). But Hib usually presents and a bad cold and cough, sometimes with pink eye. Even if someone did go to the doctor about it, the doctor is likely to just prescribe drops for the pink eye. If the doctor does a culture, and that's the only way to diagnose it, then it would get reported as Hib. Thus, the actual true incidence of Hib is very under-reported, and the incidence of Hib that leads to meningitis should be a number much larger than 1 in 200.   It seems her real point is that parents make decisions based on fear and with the firm belief that they know what's best for their children, or at least they don't want to be told what's best and be forced to comply. I think there's a real story there to be investigated. What's ironic is that the author doesn't acknowledge her own fear and how she's found numbers and "facts" that make her feel safe in her own parenting decisions, right or wrong.

    posted by : portlandwriter on 3/28/2007 at 2:09 AM Flag For Abuse

  23. Babble, your system deletes out things in italics. That's very, very annoying. Here is my post without the system deletes:   I'm shocked at how many people think this is a well-written, thoughtful piece of journalism. It's riddled with vague statements, and is woefully lacking in attribution. And with any quick Google search you can see that in her reporting of some numbers, such as the polio data,  she left out important information, like *most people who get polio don't have symptoms and most who get paralytic polio do recover.* And could she at least acknowledge the possiblity that there is a relationship between the ever-increasing numbers of shots on the required list, the money the drug companies stand to gain by adding to this list. And what about the US Federal Court Court of Claims' "Vaccine Court" where parents can file claims of injury for their children who are damaged by vaccines? Why are taxpayers paying these claims and not drug companies? Why shouldn't parents be at least suspicious when they see things like this happening?   And I'm not even going to bother with her HiB numbers. Okay, I will bother. Hib is incredibly common, virtually everyone over 30 has had it, probably multiple times, so her numbers that 1 in 200 people get meningitis just don't add up. Perhaps if you looked at the small number of cases of Hib that get reported, you will find that 1 in 200 lead to minigitis (Hib itself is *not* meningitis). But Hib usually presents and a bad cold and cough, sometimes with pink eye. Even if someone did go to the doctor about it, the doctor is likely to just prescribe drops for the pink eye. If the doctor does a culture, and that's the only way to diagnose it, then it would get reported as Hib. Thus, the actual true incidence of Hib is very under-reported, and the incidence of Hib that leads to meningitis should be a number much larger than 1 in 200.   It seems her real point is that parents make decisions based on fear and with the firm belief that they know what's best for their children, or at least they don't want to be told what's best and be forced to comply. I think there's a real story there to be investigated. What's ironic is that the author doesn't acknowledge her own fear and how she's found numbers and "facts" that make her feel safe in her own parenting decisions, right or wrong.

    posted by : portlandwriter on 3/28/2007 at 2:44 AM Flag For Abuse

  24. We  have an exceptional pediatrician who is open-minded, liberal and pragmatic -- she sometimes recomends herbal remedies.  I very highly doubt that she has a natural affinity for pharmaceutical companies. She is regularly listed in the top 100 pediatricians in new york. And she will not accept patients who are unwilling to have their children vaccinated. More and more doctors are taking this position. It's not because the pharmaceutical companies bring them chocolates; its not because they have not heard all the horror stories and read all the data -- it's because they HAVE read all the data, they have evaluated it, and they have come to their own conclusions about the best way to maximize the likelihood of having healthy children.

    It's impossible to make good medical decisions based on anecdote, but unfortunately human beings are naturally inclined to value anecdotes and fear-mongering over broad scientific testing. If you ask people what they do to avoid colds or recover from them, 30 people will give you 30 different answers.  Case studies of one are wildly inaccurate. I ate garlic before more cold went away hence garlic makes colds go away. This kind of faulty reasoning is the whole reason that the scientific method -- which requires testing on larger groups, controls, and so on -- were developed.

    The same logical mistake is made in reverse by many parents who attribue their childrens medical problems to vaccines. My child received vaccines and then had learning disabilities, hence vaccines caused my child's learning disabilities. The whole reason we have a medical profession is to protect ourselves from our own natural inclination to engage in faulty analysis and poor decision making.

    Do pharmaceutical companies have an interest in encourage the adoption of as many vaccines as possible? Sure. Are the FDA and various medical organizations and your pediatrician lobied by pharmaceutical companies? yes they are. Does it follow that your doctor's recommendation is party of vast conspiracy? No it doesn't. I think a lot of these parents who think they know better than thousands of phd's and MDs should take off a decade, get a phd in medicine, and do a half dozen scientifically rigorous tests, and get back to us on the subject.

    posted by : Papaganoose on 3/28/2007 at 12:17 PM Flag For Abuse

  25. I agree with Papaganoose. And since I am unwilling to take the MCATs, I've chosen to trust my pediatrician's vaccination advice. She does, after all, vaccinate her own children.

    posted by : Maujer on 3/29/2007 at 7:30 PM Flag For Abuse

  26. I'm always glad to see an article in which people who don't vaccinate their children are shown to be the relentless idiots that they are. It's sad that their kids are going to die slow and painful deaths, but hey, that's their journey, right?

    Anyway, I feel like this is a typo, or at least I couldn't follow the logic of this sentence:

    one of which was traced directly to a Waldorf School (where the educational philosophy is famously — and harmlessly — fruitcake, but the belief that vaccines weaken children's immune systems is less well-known).

    Can anyone explain what they're getting at here?

    posted by : madfoot on 3/30/2007 at 2:47 PM Flag For Abuse


  27. Worldwide, measles deaths in 2000 approached 1 million a year.  1 million! 
    Global measles deaths in 2006 dropped to 500,000.  How?  Simply increasing vaccination rates in the heavily hit countries from 50% to 66%.  Nearly half a million lives saved just like that.

    If the measles vaccination rate drops below 90% in the US there will be outbreaks.  Stone cold scientific fact.  In Europe this already happened and they got quite a wakeup call.

    Hib causes epigottitis (your throat closes up and you die) and meninigitis.  The vaccine totally blocks this.

    Whooping cough killed thousands in the US until the 1940s.  Of those who died, most were infants.  Vaccination dropped that to nearly zero.

    Vaccines are given under age one because those are the people that die the most from these illnesses.

    Autism has a giant genetic link.  Look it up.  Twins have a 50% chance of being autistic.  Sibs a 10% chance.  Within 5 years we will have located the autism gene.  I'd bet money on it. 

    In my opinion, not vaccinating is like not wearing your seatbelt on the outside chance that in a car crash you will go off a bridge, end up under water and the seatbelt will jam causing you to drown.  Yeah, it could happen but aren't the odds that much greater that the seatbelt will save your life.

    Don't believe me, talk to your grandmother (or your great uncle or the oldest relative you've got).  Ask them to tell you about Polio, Whooping cough, measles, mumps, and tetnus (lockjaw).  When they are done talking, ask yourself who you are gonna believe, your Grandma or some goof ball on the internet with an ax to grind or a book to sell you?




    posted by : whitman00 on 4/1/2007 at 11:27 PM Flag For Abuse

  28. Here's a question:  I have a friend who doesn't vaccinate, who stays home with her kids, and her kids are ALWAYS sick- with colds and flus and the like.  I vaccinated, I also stay home with my child, and my daughter is only ever sick when she has caught stuff from them.  Could there be a link there or does that sound like coincidence?  AKA is it possible that my daughter's immunities built up by her vaccines are stronger even against common colds than the immune systems of my friend's children?    This is probably a good example of the faulty logic that Papaganoose mentioned, but I was just curious.

    posted by : mapgirl27 on 4/2/2007 at 11:36 PM Flag For Abuse

  29. Vaccines were something my wife and I struggled with for a long time. We waited until our sons were two years old before beginning vaccinations. It was the age we were comfortable with. Regardless of what people say, our kids are our responsibility and it is up to us to make the best possible decisions we can for them.

    With regard to vaccinations, I stood on the side of vaccinating our children from Day One. My wife didn't want to vaccinate. We each softened our stances when we started reading what authors from both sides of the argument had written. Often the tone of these articles (including this one) was: "Oh, you don't know..." We found this actually tempted us to do the opposite of what "we didn't know..."

    What's funny is that pro-vaccinites say that vaccines won't work unless there is a "critical mass," so instead of asking science for better vaccines that do not require "critical mass," they blame concerned parents who have chosen not to vaccinate. Equally as funny is anti-vaccinites who say they won't vaccinate because they are concerned about the possible side effects, so instead of researching their family's medical history to determine any inclination to autism and other diseases, they dismiss the benefits of vaccination entirely.

    My wife and I are vaccinating our children BUT this does not mean we blindly accept everything our pediatrician tells us. We question and make the best decision possible based on our understanding of the answers we receive.

    I was disappointed by this article. Yet another Pro-vaccinite getting up on a soapbox placing blame.

    posted by : youngsterNYC on 4/8/2007 at 9:23 AM Flag For Abuse

  30. Herd immunity has nothing to do with the quality a vaccine and to do with a simple mathematical fact. The following model may help: we take a large box, fill it with 1000 white ping pong balls (the white balls are immunized children), we then add 3 red ping pong balls ( children who cant be immunized, to weak, to sick, whatever). This box is a fully immunized community, we then introduce a sick outsider, (one blue ping pong ball.) Shake the box over and over and over, for anybody else to get sick that blue ball has to touch the red ones (not likely), and even if it does one of the two ball have to find the third. In a perfect world the blue ball recovers, and thus turns white( now immune), or dies before touching the weak unprotected red balls.      

    posted by : Ethnedad on 4/12/2007 at 11:51 AM Flag For Abuse

  31. The reason why so many people want to vaccinate their children is because they have not researched  the right material. They only listen to what the doctor tells them. Guys listen, doctors are trained to use scare tactics into thinking  that vaccines are the best thing on earth. Did you know that 800,000 children are either damaged or die from vaccines in the US alone every year!! thats insane so if you think about it thats about 66,000 children a month!
    Why poision such a little bodie. I got an MMR shot in the hospital after i had my daughter and it messed me up bad it made me feel like my body was dieing or somthing. Im a big girl ok and i wasnt going to do that to an 8 pound baby....well at 2 months about 13 pounds or so but still feel the way i did. The thing is aslo is that vaccines dont last forever. I was told by a doctor that they like to give baby shots so earlie because they wont remember.
    IF your a parent and dont want to vaccinate stick to your guns dont be easily intiminated buy the uneducated group.
    I have a daugter who is not Vaccinated shes one now....and i work with kids through out most of the day and i see alot of difference in behavior between the un and the vaccinated children.
    I dont know if anyone has a myspace account but I have my own web page. Get in the search engine on the myspace page and look up under email...novacsmom I have some information on their about immunizations.
    whats harder about making the decision is when noone else believes you and you have a doctor yapping or lecturing you in one ear and a married related fam member yapping at you in the other.
    They say if your going to do it at all then wait till about 2-3 yrs old..

    Dear Madfoot!
    This isent the 1930s or 40s ok alot of things have changed. back then to you have to remember Sanatation wase'nt all that wonderful either compared to now.poor sanitation= sick people

    See doctors also are only told that 1 in every 1000 children can die or become damaged they are fed lines of BS and just ponderit off to the adults who are willing to listen to them. Because they know that most parents are going to listen to their doctors adivce bla blah blah!


    www.mercola.com
    a good one is....www.vaccinetruth.com
    18882491421 a vaccine truth hotline you can call totally free and well you might have to leave a message and # but its ok they'll call you back


    posted by : Novacsmom on 4/13/2007 at 1:29 AM Flag For Abuse

  32. I have a 3.5 yo unvaxed son whose illnesses throughout his entire life have amounted to 2 episodes of runny nose.  And he is around kids most days.  And there is the difficulty with anecdotal evidence - one person says her healthy child is vaxed, another says her healthy child is unvaxed.  What does it tell us?  Nothing.  The same thing you can learn by whether your MD vaxes their children.

    There is no argument from anyone (that includes *your* doctor, the NIH and the CDC) that vaccines cause adverse reactions.  Now what is being quibbled over is how often those reactions occur.  The Vaccine Injury Compensation Program has (at last count I read, I believe as of 2004) paid out more that $1.5 billion to parents of injured children.

    Since everyone knows that bad reactions do occur - meaning that vaccines are not 100% safe - it is then apparent that this is a public health issue, and not a concrete argument about the safety of vaccines per se.  We know that some children will be harmed from vaccines, but I think the hope is to provide enough immunity by vaxing everyone such that overall  This is essentially a utilitarian argument about the health of children: we know that by vaxing we will make some children ill (or possibly even die) for the benefit of children in general.  My problem with this is that I am unwilling to sacrifice the potential well-being of my child for the benefit of any others - and I don't blame anyone else who feels this way.  On the other hand, if you think that it is your communitarian duty to get your child vaxed for the well-being of others, and you're willing to take the long odds of vaccine injury, I support your right to do so as well. But yes, I consider myself a proud, smart, free rider.

    Perhaps parents of vaccine-injured children find it is a consolation that their children were hurt so that others may be well, but I doubt it.

    If you think that your child has a lot to lose by getting the usual childhood illnesses - go back and have a look at the death rates from these diseases by looking at the official data of *deaths* - not the number of children who get them.  Children get those diseases and recover all the time, provided they are healthy to begin with and have good health support and nutrition (just as others assert that most kids who get vaxes are fine).

    And to the extremely arrogant poster whose thinking is a lovely demonstration of the age-old logical fallacy of the "argument from authority" by recommending that (quoting here):   ...a lot of these parents who think they know better that thousands of phd's (sic) and MDs should take off a decade, get a phd in medicine, and do a half dozen scientifically rigorous tests and get back to us on the subject. (end quote)  Let me be kind and gently remind you that doctors are constantly wrong about things, and in huge numbers - the first thing that comes to mind is ulcers which had been medically treated by gastric freezing, and numerous hydrochloric acid suppressants before a ridiculed theory about helicobacter pylori turned out to be right on the money. 

    I also cannot help but wonder if you will disallow the same temporal causality arguments to people who claim their child got some vaccine-preventable disease and died as you do to those who claim to know what cures colds and those who think that vaxes harmed their kids.  Next thing you know you will be quoting Hume and claiming causality can never be demonstrated - all the while talking about your doctor's skill in evaluating causality.

    signed,
    PhD in physics, where we are still taught to think rigorously instead of just trained to remember facts to do a job, like plumbers and MDs.

    posted by : phy6girl on 4/19/2007 at 1:14 PM Flag For Abuse

  33. Heh. When it was time to vaccinate our daughter, my husband (whose little sister died from meningitis before she was 3) and I were discussing with the Dr. a person we know who didn't vaccinate.

    The doctor's lips flattened out and she said quietly, "She's never held her own dead baby, has she?"

    I agree with the seatbelt analogy.

    Ironically, it's probably affluent trendy nutcase parents who will succeed in bringing childhood diseases back to this country.

    Gah.  The anti-vax crowd is like the Christian right: you just can't reason with 'em.

    posted by : jenseju on 4/20/2007 at 4:07 PM Flag For Abuse

  34. This is a hard one.  I think that vaccinating because you are afraid of the possiblities of disease is a poor choice, but not vaccinating because you are afraid of the possibility of side effects is a poor choice as well.   Making decisions based on fear or desperation seems a bit unsound.  I think that parents need to arm themselves with both sides of the issue, and make a choice that feels sound to them.  That may not be the same for everyone.   And, I have 3 children.  The oldest, I vaccinated.  He has always been frail and suffers from severe eczema.  He was vaccinated against chicken pox, and got it anyways, from another vaccinated child, and was home for a week.    His two brothers, I decided to wait.  If I travel, if the need arises, then yes, they will get shots. (For instance, my son cut his head open in the city, and played in god knows what afterwards, and needed staples. He got a tetanus shot, too.)  But not as a preload precaution.  They are both strong as tanks and super healthy.  Their daycare worker said that in the 20+ years of running the daycare, the healthiest, strongest, and smartest kids are the ones who are not vaccinated.  She said it makes her wonder why that is, and she personally vaccinated her own children, but she does see a difference, and has throughout her career.    I am not trying to be reckless, or endanger anyone. I am trying to make a choice that is sound and morally right for me.  I think that condemning someone's child to die a painful death due to a choice not to vaccinate is just cruel and spiteful and close minded.  Likewise, I think condemning someone for choosing to follow the medical establishment is too.   It's a hot button topic.  People need to follow their instincts, and operate from a place removed from panic and fear.    Just my opinion.

    posted by : PaulaSoup on 10/1/2007 at 2:19 PM Flag For Abuse

  35. People should be allowed to practice their ignorance and dopiness with their children in the privacy of their own homes. But unvaccinated children should not be allowed in public schools for any reason. If you feel that strongly then you should be willing to sacrifice and home school or go to a private school with low standards for health. Or maybe a religious school full of people with religious exemptions. With any luck these people will not bring polio back.

    posted by : LouisaAnderson on 10/30/2007 at 3:19 AM Flag For Abuse

  36. bravo phy6girl.

    yeah, jenseju, "you just can't reason with [the anti-vax crowd]".  and "reason" is where, exactly, in a statement like "the doctor's lips flattened out and she said quietly, 'She's never held her own dead baby, has she?'"? 

    no.  i've never held a dead baby.  but i have held my violently febrile (104+) son for days after both of his first two DPT shots.  so no more vaccinations until he's at least two.

    some kids react violently to vaccinations--that's a fact, not the anecdotal rantings of an alien abducted hippie.  my kid is one of the unfortunate ones.  so i don't give a rat's ass what anyone thinks about my decision to delay or perhaps forgo further vaccinations. 

    doctors are not omniscient.  have the guts to decide for yourself based upon your own insight, research (this includes talking to your doctor), consideration and experience.  (if you are incapable of that, god help you when someone you love gets a life threatening illness--if my family had listened to my father's initial set of oncology docs he'd be dead three times over).

    stop the name calling--there is  NOT one right answer for everyone regarding all vaccinations. 

    posted by : ffp on 11/4/2007 at 9:30 PM Flag For Abuse

  37. This reminds me of the article on breastfeeding vs. formula feeding. A few so-called experts will not convince me formula feeding is equal to breastfeeding or that vaccines are completely safe.

    I'm not a anti-vaccines extremist who think they cause autism or SIDs. However, as a logical thinking human being who likes to weigh out the pros and cons of things I have some serious issues with vaccinations. To start with, if babies are given the same anti-bodies as their mothers in the woam and also during breastfeeding, why is there such a push in the US for small babies to be vaccinated? If their parents were vaccinated, then babies are born with everything they need to fight off such illinesses. Breastfed babies are even better off because they are constantly exposed to whatever new antibodies their moms develop during the breastfeeding period. I also have a concern with mercury and other toxins in vaccines as well. The CDC is telling women not to eat too much fish because of mercury, our entire country is freaked out about lead in toys, but it's perfectly fine to inject babies with vaccines filled with chemicals? Or like with the flu vaccine, we are told we shouldn't give our babies eggs until past the first year of age, yet the flu vaccine which contains egg bi-products and does cause allergic reactions in indivduals who are allergic to eggs, are perfectly fine for an infant? Another issue I have is with children getting vaccinated for illinesses that do not typically cause death or health problems. My daughter is supposed to get her Hep A vaccine at her next appointment but I researched the disease and only 30 people die a year from it, most children who contract it have no health problems resulting from exposer what so ever. Even more infuriating is that it can be prevented completely through proper hygene like food service workers washing their hands. Another pro-vaccine arguement is that if we don't vaccine we will have large outbreaks of deadly diseases. I find that interesting because they stopped vaccinating against smallpox 20 or 30 years ago after finding out 1 in million children died from the vaccine (which also makes me wonder if we really should trust new vaccines) and we have not seen one large outbreak in the US since. Yes, vaccines do prevent diseases and do what they are supposed to, wipe them out. Once they are completely wiped out, why do we need to continue to vaccine and add more vaccines into our children's system?

    To assert that by not vaccinating my child, I am putting other children at risk is stupid. If vaccines really work, it shouldn't matter if lets say my child contracts a disease, your child the vaccinated one should still be safe, if vaccines really work. The problem is vaccines don't work. Outbreaks have happened among vaccinated populations.Outbreaks can even be caused by live vaccines. It's estimated that vaccines are only 50% effective at preventing disease.

    I believe there are other things we can do, both to make vaccines safer for our children and to prevent disease outbreaks. That doesn't mean I am a radical nut. It means I am thinking logically about the issue and looking out for the best interest of my child.

    posted by : dhsredhead on 12/3/2007 at 10:07 PM Flag For Abuse

  38. I have not read anyone state that they are willing to injest through their mouths the contents of a vaccine. What am I talking about? I will not inject into my children anything I would not swallow. If you don't know what I'm talking about, do the research about the ingredients of vaccines. As for those who are so up in arms about those who do not vaccinate: what's your worry? Your children are protected, right? Just as those who believe in God are "safer" from "hell" than those who do not, those who do not vaccinate do so knowing the risks and do so anyway. .....okay, I know I just put two holy cans of worms together (vaccines and religion)....thoughts?

    posted by : we are each doing what we think on 2/23/2008 at 12:37 AM Flag For Abuse

  39. This article was extremely frustrating for its snide tone if nothing else. Anything the author didn't agree with was treated with sneering derision, and not backed up with much in the way of solid fact. The pissy comments about Waldorf education come to mind . . .

    I've made a lot of choices for my life and family that don't coincide with the author's. They were made after careful research and consideration. I homeschool, don't vaccinate, and didn't worry about "well baby" visits. My children are as healthy as horses.

    It is possible for a reasonably well-informed parent to understand when their child is and isn't well, and I've personally experienced bone-headed care at the hands of "health professionals", to the point where I feared for my child's well-being at the hands of said professionals.

    The medical establishment doesn't have all the answers any more than parents do. Taking EITHER one too seriously is unwise. A little respect for those who have made decisions different from yours would go a long way. It would at least make for an article that actually informs rather than rants.

    posted by : aemom on 3/25/2008 at 11:43 PM Flag For Abuse

  40. I don't understand people like aemom, but I'm glad things turned out well for her despite taking some major risks with her children's lives.

    A friend of mine had her second child recently, giving birth at home, but didn't forego the well-baby visits. And good thing she didn't, or her baby son would be dead. Her pediatrician didn't like the sound of his heart and set them over to the local children's hospital, where they discovered he had a heart defect that required immediate treatment. He is thriving post-surgery.

    The "medical establishment" isn't a monolith, but their numbers include researchers who really take their work seriously and have it vigorously cross-checked by others -- as well as doctors who have seen what happens when kids get diseases that could have been prevented.

    Rather than stick with "bone-headed" doctors, why not put some effort into finding good ones? They're out there, and some of them are supportive of alternative medicine. My pediatrician was totally cool with vaccinating our daughter on a spread-out schedule in which she receives no more than two shots per visit.

    I do believe that some people shouldn't be vaccinated - there are health conditions and allergies that mean the shots are going to hurt more than help. But that's why the rest of us need to keep up with the vaccinations, in order to protect those with weaker immune systems. What if your kid gets chicken pox and ends up spreading it to somebody with HIV or someone elderly? Your kid will be fine. They won't.

    Like it or not, we all share the same planet, and while you can choose to homeschool your kids without it affecting other people, some of your other decisions have very negative consequences for others.

    posted by : outsidethebubble on 3/27/2008 at 2:56 PM Flag For Abuse

  41. There are some good points to this article. Much of it, in representing the attitudes of many anti-vaccine parents, is fair and balanced.

    Unfortunately, you are making an assumption that vaccines work to keep specific diseases out of the body, and that is not necessarily the case. That's what we have been told they do, but there is a strong body of research in peer-reviewed medical journals that would say otherwise. Unbiased journalism means reaching beyond your own opinions and doing a little more research next time.

    posted by : Kara546 on 4/10/2008 at 9:31 PM Flag For Abuse

  42. Ugh, another article focusing more on trying to be clever and divisive while purporting to provide "fair and balanced" coverage. As a mom who does vaccinate her kids on an alternate schedule (delayed schedule, never more than 1 shot at a time, declining unnecessary shots like varicella and flu), this is never, ever a black and white issue. This is where both "sides" get it horribly wrong -- and continue to buy into the blindness and ignorance that exists on BOTH ends of the vax/no vax spectrum.

    posted by : Lynne on 4/16/2008 at 12:43 AM Flag For Abuse

  43. Parents opting out of well visits because they know when their child is sick? How very forward thinking. Let's forego prevention and wait until our child is too sick to be saved. Woohoo! That's showing those idiot doctors who's boss.

    How about talking to the mother of an autistic child - whether she believes it was from a vaccine or not - and asking her if she thinks early intervention at the suggestion of a pediatrician (who caught something she didn't notice) made a difference in her child's life.

    As parents, yes, we often know our children best. But we also know our separate fields best. If we're not in the field of medicine, chances are we're not the experts at how to treat our child medically. That's why you choose a pediatrician wisely, do some investigation, maybe a few interviews.

    This isn't about vaccine or no vaccine. It's about being knowing our limits as parents.

    posted by : jeanne on 4/28/2008 at 3:56 PM Flag For Abuse

  44. Great Article and much appreciated.

    I am glad you pointed out that the Measles outbreak this year in Europe was traced to a Waldorf school. It was spread to San Diego via a child who was unvaccinated and then to other children in San Diego.

    Yes, the religion/philosophy Waldorf is based upon - anthroposophy - teaches that children need to go through these diseases as part of their karmic debt. So vaccinating kids screws with their karma. Scary.

    The measles outbreak in Europe this year show how quickly the non-vaxers can spread diseases in a community of non-vaxers and how quickly it can spread to the vaccinated communities

    Dr. Peter Strebel, of the World Health Organization, said there is a risk the disease might spread to thousands of soccer fans and teams who come for the 15 international games Switzerland will host during the Euro 2008.

    Switzerland is a plane ride away. . .

    http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/E/333/341/723302.html

    Please keep in mind that when you choose not to vax there are infants out their who are MOST in danger when they catch diseases like measles. Does anyone here think it is fair to risk other people's infants who are still to young to have been vaccinated?

    Also - ffp - you really should do some research about herd immunity and vaccinations. Clearly, you are not equipped to debate this subject. It would take paragraphs to explain it to you. So read up, do your research so you can base your opinion on at least the very basics acknowledged by both pro-vaxers and anti-vaxers.

    posted by : Rational Parenting on 6/26/2008 at 3:41 PM Flag For Abuse

  45. herd immunity is bull. if vaccines worked the way scientists say they work it wouldn't matter if your child was the only one vaccinated in the world they would be safe. Herd immunity is important to you people b/c vaccines are crap and don't work. Not only are you injecting toxins into your child but those toxins don't even do what you want them to do.

    posted by : Anon on 10/22/2008 at 12:20 AM Flag For Abuse

  46. herd immunity is bull. if vaccines worked the way scientists say they work it wouldn't matter if your child was the only one vaccinated in the world they would be safe. Herd immunity is important to you people b/c vaccines are crap and don't work. Not only are you injecting toxins into your child but those toxins don't even do what you want them to do.

    And as for things like chicken pox: all a vaccine for this particular fairly benign childhood disease does is push the disease up into the populations where the disease cause greater harm and even death. Vax immunities are not like natural immunity. Natural immunity is for life, vaccines do not last that long which the way many adults need boosters. Most of the diseases we currently vaccinate for are either preventable with increases in the quality of sanitation or fairly mild childhood diseases. It's just insanity the way these things are pushed!

    posted by : Anon on 10/22/2008 at 12:24 AM Flag For Abuse

  47. I would like to briefly give my view of the non-vax perspective, just so you have another viewpoint. I am not here to argue, and hopefully whether you disagree or not, you can at least realize what a difficult decision this is regardless of what choice you eventually make.

    I fully vaxed my first child, as I didn't know any different back then. That was many, many years ago. With my daughter (second child), I had read much literature presenting both sides of the vax argument. I held off on vaccines as long as I could, but when I found myself panic-stricken every time she coughed or someone in the grocery sneezed (I was absolutely terrified by the description of whooping cough in babies, I couldn't take it and had her vaxed for dtap. Unlike my first child, whose vaccines went just fine, my daughter shrieked a high-pitched shriek for the entire evening after the vaccine. I was unbelievably horrified, as that is how most parents who have filed vaccine law suits describe the beginning of the end for their child after receiving vaccines. She ended up fine and is fine today, but that was the first and last vaccine she received.

    With my third child, not only did I read every book, article, and study I could get my hands on, I also asked the doctor for the DOCTOR (not patient) inserts that come with each vaccine. They describe what's in the vaccine, adverse affects and reported rates of each, and descriptions and incidences of each disease, including death rates. I was thoroughly convinced that the vaccine risk was eons higher than disease risk. He has never been vaccinated. I just couldn't bring myself to take my healthy baby boy to have a doctor inject him, straight into his bloodstream, with egg albumin, fetal tissue, mercury, formeldehyde, and other ridiculous toxins that now, years later, escape my memory.

    That was a decision that I thought was highly personal, and one that I knew I had to live with. I have spent many nights in agony, over the years of my motherhood, trying to decipher what is the right thing to do. Whatever you think of non-vax parents, it is agonizing, especially in today's info-overloaded culture, to know what best to do for our children. Now I have heard the arguments against non-vax parents, and I just want to share my own thoughts on those topics.

    1. Putting all children at risk: I didn't think that I was getting a free ride based on other people putting their kids at risk through vaccination. I did think that there are plenty of people deciding, through their own free will, to vaccinate their children, and because they make that decision it makes my decision easier. But if that is the decision you make (to vaccinate), you should stand by it. No one is forcing you - all 50 states allow exemptions of some kind. Unlike when these diseases were rampant, we now have clean water, healthy food, tons of knowledge about boosting immunity and nutrition, and much more medicine and medical knowledge to treat disease. How many people TODAY die or have lasting repercussions from these illnesses when they get them? To me, my decision-making process not only included whether these diseases were even around, but whether they are a threat like they once were before today's state of health, safety, and medicine. Am I taking advantage of the fact that I live in a society with clean water to drink, and plenty of access to nutritious foods, immune-boosters, and such, and low incidences of disease? Yes! I have to make this decision right here, right now, for my child. And though both sides are scary and the decision is difficult, I cannot bring myself to take my child to someone and ask them to inject known toxins and known carcinogens into his bloodstream when he is not at much risk in the first place! I'm sorry that so many people see this as selfish, but this is a much more complicated issue than you all are making it out to be.

    2. While it seems that the repercussions of more and more people not vaccinating may end in a cataclysmic upswing in these diseases, or a revolt that results in no more mandatory vaccines, I am hoping that it will spur on more research into creating safer vaccines and other ways to prevent or cure these diseases in the first place. Why are we complacent with vaccines that are dangerous? Rather than demanding that we not have to use them at all, why not demand safer vaccines? The reason no efforts are being made is because the manufacturers are already making billions of dollars each year. Why change? The mercury was lowered because there was such a drop in profit ( so much so that vaccine manufacturers threatened to stop producing vaccines and the government stepped in and took over the financial responsibility for adverse effects resulting from unsafe vaccines).

    I say, as parents, we all need to stand up to make our world a safer and safer place for our children. That won't happen by attacking each other for agonizing decisions that we don't agree with. And it won't happen by choosing the lesser of two evils. We've got to make our leaders and decision-makers put people before profits!

    posted by : the7clan on 11/4/2008 at 4:02 PM Flag For Abuse

  48. My aunt is a survivor of polio, confined to a wheelchair since she was 15. I am vaccinated against it. Why would I want to risk something for my child that I am happily protected against myself? Besides, I have far too good a grasp of history to believe that it cannot repeat itself. It is sad that these diseases are coming back even here, even Great Britain, even Germany (a very sanitary culture I've been told
    ), but the generation who loses their siblings and best friends in this generation will vaccinate their own children. In the meantime, the more people who don't vaccinate will only make me more sure of vaccinating my own babies - to protect them from theirs.

    posted by : mchaos on 1/12/2009 at 8:53 PM Flag For Abuse

  49. Parents have reason to be suspicious because the institutionalized pro-vaccine movement is not  being honest.  The government and medical establishment never acknowledges the possibility that vaccines have major side effects. Instead they have setup a system where people who feel their children have been hurt by vaccines will be paid off but have to agree to waive any claim that the vaccine was to blame. The government does NOT allow you to sue pharmaceuticals for damages, they will just pay you off and make you keep silent. That to me speaks pretty load that they are hiding something.

    Our doctors go to medical school and get barraged by the medical establishment to never question vaccines, and that is why they are  pushing ineffective vaccines like flu shots, which likely do more harm then good.
    Even worse though they are so indoctrinated by the pro vaccine stance that they are outright agents for a lie. If you are vaccinated for whooping cough, but go to the doctor with ALL OF THE SYSTEMS of whooping cough even though you received the vaccine, they will just call the disease something else.
    Meaning, they will absolutely refuse to acknowledge publicly that the vaccine might have failed.
    So when another couple of parents go to their local doctor and express fear about the effectiveness and risks of a vaccines, the doctor (assuming they give you the time of day) will then take out a wonderful book showing convincing statistics about how safe and effective they are.
    But those statistics are cooked, and based on a lie, because (1) parents with side effects are being silenced and (2) cases of ineffective vaccines are being reclassified.



    posted by : accorn on 3/7/2009 at 3:08 AM Flag For Abuse

  50. Alright, everyone, repeat after me: 
    Correlation is NOT causation. 
    Correlation is NOT causation.
    Correlation is NOT causation.

    Once you understand this very basic scientific maxim you may have some small hope of getting out from under the fearful misunderstanding that vaccines are some sort of evil plot. 

    It's funny -- it seems that the anti-vaccine camp pretty much has two arguments:

    1.  You're just a sheep and you're not doing your research.

    If you respond to #1 above with, "As a matter of fact, I have done research, here are studies from the CDC, AMA, AAP, etc.," they'll use argument #2:

    2.  You're just a sheep if you listen to those people.  They're lying.


    The tenor of this debate reminds me of the anti-evolutionists who deny or misunderstand basic scientific principals and methods, such as carbon dating. 

    I've noticed that many vaccine deniers tend to pretty anti-Bush as well, yet the irony is that they are about as respectful of scientific methods as the Bush administration was -- which is to say not at all.  Bush ignored science when it didn't confirm his own belief system (e.g.:  needle exchange programs fight AIDS), and I think that's exactly what's going on here.  Here's hoping the Obama administration will embark on a crusade to restore science to its rightful place again, which will include education in basic scientific literacy -- what makes a study reliable vs. methodologically flawed, how to determine the credibility of a source, or at the very least, impart a basic understanding of this maxim:  Correlation is NOT causation!!!

    posted by : Linda Williamson on 4/1/2009 at 3:42 PM Flag For Abuse

  51. why did my comment get deleted?  about the link between aborted fetal cell tissue and vaccines?It's something parents can verify for themselves at their doctor's clinic very easily.and it's why i don't vaccinate.i won't take advantage of someone who can't protect themselves, and that's how i see the aborted child.

    posted by : mamazee73 on 5/29/2009 at 4:34 PM Flag For Abuse

  52. Not sure quite what you're trying to say there Mamazee73 but if you want to protect a newborn child, who as you say can't protect themselves, then vaccination is absolutely the course of action to take.

    I started to research this whole issue because I discovered that a friend and a person whose opinions I really respected is anti-vax. I started to wonder why she's anti-vax and to questions my decisions re our sons vaccinations. I found this article informative, although a little biased. I have conducted other research though and here is what I think...

    I see vaccination as a social responsibility. We should all be vaccinating all our children for the sake of all our children. There are reasons why vaccinations were initially developed and those reasons remain even if the diseases have been apparently eradicated within the Western world. There is an element of choice in parenting, of course, however, if your choice is to not vaccinate devastating results could ensue. How would you feel, for instance, if your unvaccinated child got the measles? It's a killer disease which is on the increase due to the increasing anti-vax population. It's possible that your child would survive but what if they infected a younger child (too young to vaccinate) before the disease was diagnosable. The younger child would have a less developed immune system which would leave them with a higher risk of death. I would say that in this case the decision to not vaccinate would be socially irresponsible and as a result a parent should always vaccinate for the health of their child and the health of the wider population.

    I think its interesting that in these days of a smaller world (with the internet and so on) that we are increasingly disconnected from our wider community. Anti-vax sheeple (because really you're the sheeple- believing the conspiracy theories!) are a real symptom of our disconnected society!

    All the other reasons for not vaccinating that I've read here and in other forums are completely unfounded and I've found no solid basis for not vaccinating a child. I feel better informed for reading this site and feel very confident about the decisions we've made for our boy. I'd like to thank everyone for their opinions, and the author of the article for the information. There will certainly be an interesting conversation when I next see my friend!!

    posted by : Tami on 6/18/2009 at 10:00 PM Flag For Abuse


   
  
 
 
   


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