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I understand that this article can't be everything to everybody (and that the writer herself probably didn't choose the byline), but to describe the advice as helpful "no matter what your beliefs" is pretty inaccurate. I was expecting there to be something useful for atheist parents, but alas...
posted by : smarah on 1/5/2009 at 10:30 AM Flag For Abuse
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...Although, actually, the explanation given by the hippie mom (which, apparently, scarred the author for life) sounds pretty good to me.
posted by : smarah on 1/5/2009 at 10:36 AM Flag For Abuse
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I don't like religion, but I thought the piece was beautiful, and I was reading it with a skeptical eye, wanting to complain after the whole Gen X housing economical nonsense...
I would never really look to an article like this to guide how I talk to my kids about something so important, but I found that it had some very edifying elements, including the hippie mom's answer.
posted by : nicewon on 1/5/2009 at 1:41 PM Flag For Abuse
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This is one of the best articles I've read on babble.com, especially because it got me thinking about how I'll handle (stumble through) these discussions with my son someday. Thanks - This was a very thoughtful piece, and beautifully written.
posted by : lumpy on 1/5/2009 at 1:55 PM Flag For Abuse
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Dare I ad my comments? I read this article and couldn't help but think, "this is such a common question for so many people". I myself had to answer this question for my sons 5 and 3, last year when my father in law died. However, my beliefs are much different than MOST faiths.
I personally believe that we are created in the image of God and we are his children. We needed a Savior to break the bands of death to help us return to our Father in Heaven. I believe we will return to meet him again. I also believe that we knew eachother before this life. That we came here with no memory of our previous exsistance so that we can make choices on our own, using the conscience we were given. I also believe that we can have help from the other side in difficult times in our lives. I believe our loved ones that have passed are not far from us. I also believe that we can pray for answers and recieve them. We have all had experiences that may not have an explanation, but if thinking from a more spiritual perspective, I think those experiences make more sense (like my miscarriage a few months ago). I also believe that scriptures were meant to be used as a tool to guide us in this life. I guess you can say that I believe this life is a test of our true character. We just have to find our way. I truly believe we are a spiritual being having a human experience, not a human having spiritual experiences.
I have had so many experiences that you can't tell me that we are on earth by chance. There is a purpose, many are still searching, but I believe all the answers to the hard questions in this life are very simple. I feel I have those answers.
posted by : TexasMommy3 on 1/5/2009 at 2:26 PM Flag For Abuse
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Great article. I'm secure in my non-believing and will probably go the hippie mom route.
I've long felt that religion was created by people for people and that faith and church aren't the same thing. I don't have a problem with faith, it's religion that scares me.
posted by : AgnosticDad on 1/5/2009 at 2:40 PM Flag For Abuse
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For the author -- have you explored Mormonism? Their doctrine teaches essentially what you wrote in the last couple of paragraphs about families knowing each other forever, and having known each other before coming here. mormon.org. In fact, as I understand it, their doctrine echoes many of the beliefs you talk about in this piece.
http://mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/heavenly-father-s-plan-of-happiness/heavenly-father-s-plan-of-happiness
posted by : ejmama on 1/5/2009 at 2:54 PM Flag For Abuse
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I had the same reaction as Smarah, at first. I wasn't expecting it to be a discourse, but more of an outline of various options. I realize that was a bit short sighted given the subject (uh people get doctorates in this subject alone:)) I really really really liked the last paragraph, that was the best look into her views and feelings, and I found myself connecting to her thoughts about God and religion. Good Job!
posted by : gottahavefaith on 1/5/2009 at 4:29 PM Flag For Abuse
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Religion is a pain in the ass. I'm Irish and was brought up catholic. But I'm a heathen and proud of it. My son goes to a church of England school only because it was the best available and it's a state school and so has kids from all sectors of the community here in south east London.
They do some religion, however, and it winds me up but I deal with it only because it'll give my son some grounding with which to appreciate the history of art and literature.
I tell it straight to my son but he knows that I don't like religion at all. I have to be very careful that he does not mistake my loathing for religion for dislike of religious people. However, my wife handles this better than I do and I've adopted her methods by simply encouraging my son and his little brother, (they're six and four), to think of god simply as an idea. God is just an IDEA. An idea, in my view, that means little in the 21st century.
What humankind really needs is to get past religion and for that matter, notions of nation state. Especially in these troubled times. Praying to some god is simply a waste of time. We've got to figure things out collectively on a species level, helping each other come up with innovative ideas and technologies.
Just imagine what we could achieve if all that mental energy wasted on notions of god and religion was put to better use thinking about addressing the real concerns of humankind?
Really, I despair sometimes. Too many intelligent, highly educated, logical, pragmatic and professional people I know just become utterly dogmatic, precious and irrational when it comes to religion. It has such a hold on people it beggars belief, quite frankly.
Atheists, agnostics, heathens and so on, (who make up some of the most spiritual and good, good people I know), really need to make a stand and speak out about the absurdity that is religion.
If I've caused offense, then that's just too bad. I find religion offensive.
That's enough from me.
Paul Treacy
http://paultreacy.com
posted by : paultreacy on 1/6/2009 at 5:44 AM Flag For Abuse
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Paul. Where do you think you came from? Or is that just way too much to think about. I think if people just sat back and didn't wonder about how things worked, we wouldn't have all this great technology that we so dearly take for granted. It seems the only thing people can't explain is where we came from. So what do you think?
posted by : TexasMommy3 on 1/6/2009 at 3:56 PM Flag For Abuse
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Um...It's called evolution.
You know--science? That thing that people who wonder about things use to invent all the dearly- taken-for-granted technology?
Yeah, that.
posted by : smarah on 1/6/2009 at 10:58 PM Flag For Abuse
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They can't prove it. Why aren't we still evolving into something else? We've looked the same for thousands of years, how many more will it take for us to evolve into something else. What about every other creature on this earth, what did they evolve from? Makes no sense.
posted by : TexasMommy3 on 1/6/2009 at 11:49 PM Flag For Abuse
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Wow.
posted by : smarah on 1/7/2009 at 1:13 AM Flag For Abuse
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TexasMommy3, these are questions for philosophers and scientists. Theologians have had their turn and they've tried to fill our heads with such hocus pocus bullshit for so long now. It has all been about control and power over the masses. Period.
Virgin birth? Give me a break. Resurrection? Please! Come on people, it's time to kick so childish notions into touch.
Today in London a campaign has been launched to bring atheists and agnostics out into the open. It's wonderful. Red London buses with huge banners suggesting "There's probably no god. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life".
My son told me over dinner recently that my wife and I were lucky because he and his little brother were gifts from god. He was surprised that I nearly choked on my food. As far as I was aware there were only two people in my marriage and that Claire and I did it all on our own. I suggested to him that they may both have been gifts from mother nature. He was delighted with that. The god suggestion was troubling for him.
People, we have got to stop filling youngsters heads with such utterly daft and STUPID notions. Teaching kids such bullshit could be considered as a violation of their human rights. I'm serious. For my son it wasn't so bad because we talk about these issues at home. But it is confusing for him sometimes.
I know for a fact that many parents just don't have a clue about what their youngsters are being taught or what they are thinking about along these lines. Absolute truth is very dangerous. It's a form of extremism, quite frankly, when presented to such young minds. It's contradictory and hypocritical to their other studies.
Let's not waste so much mental energy with such nonsense.
I'll finish off by quoting Emily Dickinson, if I may; "That it will never come again is what makes life so sweet".
Copy and paste this link for atheist campaign;
http://current.com/items/89684941/atheist_advertising_goes_live.htm
posted by : paultreacy on 1/7/2009 at 5:25 AM Flag For Abuse
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By the way, we are evolving. We're getting taller. We're living longer. We're getting smarter. There's even some evidence to suggest that we are becoming more peaceful. Go figure. That our very nature is becoming more pacifist. It's all good.
Now if only we can continue on this path and evolve past religion and notions of nation state, we may be in with a chance to survive and prosper indefinitely.
Look at the European Union, for example, and what has been achieved since WW2. And how this very human project has evolved into the Eurozone with the single currency. If we can continue this and expand globally such security and prosperity we will indeed be evolving very nicely. Look at how the nations of South and Central America are prospering and consider their ambitions of a Euro like community. So too in Africa with the African Union and the spreading stability of burgeoning democracies modeled on the EU project. Is this not evolution? Societal evolution?
Are we not evolving? I think we are. Where was humankind 200 years ago? In evolutionary terms that was but yesterday.
Embrace atheism. It'll lift your spirits.
Damn. Did I just come up with a new slogan?
Smile, y'all.
Check this out;
http://paultreacy.com/message02.htm
posted by : paultreacy on 1/7/2009 at 5:45 AM Flag For Abuse
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By the way, it was my wife that suggested that masters Eoin and Connor were a gift from mother nature. Not me. She handles these situations rather beautifully.
She's a scientist, a doctor, a psychiatrist and all round beautiful thinker. She really knows about life. About living. About the nature of it all. AND SHE UTTERLY REJECTS GOD. As do I.
I gave up on such notions of god when I was about 17-18. I was brought up Catholic and we lived in the middle east for some years. I witnessed the oppression there and when I was sent to boarding school in Ireland for a couple of years I realized that catholicism was exactly the same thing as islam. It was all fake. It was about oppression and control. About fear. About silly stories that made no sense whatsoever to me and how I wanted to live my life.
I tried to grasp at it even joining a church choir as a guitarist in my teens. I read and listened intently to what was being taught and finally had to reject it completely. It was simply getting in the way of living a full and happy life. And it may absolutely no sense whatsoever.
I need to get back to work. I'm not wasting anymore time on this.
posted by : paultreacy on 1/7/2009 at 6:02 AM Flag For Abuse
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I just have to speak briefly to evolution again. To TexasMommy3; For most of our evolution we adapted to our environment, like all the other animals.
Eventually, however, our evolving intelligence allowed us to adapt our environment to suit us rather than adapt to our environment. Perhaps now with the various environmental issues facing humankind we need to learn to adapt to our environment again. Or at least use our powers to endeavour to fix some of the environmental problems. This too is evolution.
Here's an interesting theory I learned about years ago that is getting more attention. This is an excerpt from my book, WOOFERS: Dogs and their people - Dogs have been our close companions for much of human history. It is suggested that our close relationship with them facilitated our developing speech. Since dogs became our nose and ears, affording us security from human competition and an early alert to dangerous prey, we no longer needed the heavy skull structure for the large ears and noses we had. This, it is theorized, allowed the evolution of more complex vocal mechanisms that eventually provided for spoken language. This symbiotic relationship may have allowed homo sapians to survive and neanderthals to perish as we became more sophisticated and dominant.
It's suggested that at this point in our development we started to domesticate animals and begin farming. Farming therefore allowed other people to develop other skills once freed from needing to gather and hunt for food. It is around this stage in our progress that we moved from species evolution to societal evolution having the skills to express and develop ideas. Humans were now free to develop individual skills, trades and even professions.
There's much to think about here and much to learn.
Of course we are still evolving on both a species and a societal level. Try to think about it leaving god out of the equation. God is just a distraction. God only factors in to the extent that god is a human construct. Period.
If it were not for dogs, funnily enough, there would be no god or gods. Weird.
And what did dogs get from all of this? Shelter and scraps. That's all they wanted. Think for a while about what we gained. This is a theory but there's evidence that it was happening in various places on earth at around the same time.
It's dogs that are the smart ones.
posted by : paultreacy on 1/7/2009 at 6:34 AM Flag For Abuse
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Smarah, you were up late. You and night owl like me?
It appears I'm a early bird from the times here but I'm on GMT.
Okay, I must get back to work.
photo@paultreacy.com
http://paultreacy.com
posted by : paultreacy on 1/7/2009 at 6:41 AM Flag For Abuse
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Type errors all over the place. Sorry. My coffee fueled fingers are going too fast.
A night owl
An early bird
posted by : paultreacy on 1/7/2009 at 6:44 AM Flag For Abuse
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Why waste your life having faith in one mans theory? Or lots of men, for that matter. What a life, believing we evolved from animals that still exsist and are in no way looking a bit like us. I believe animals did exsist before us. But I don't for a minute believe that we are their offspring.
By the way, Giants have exsisted for thousands of years. Anyone over 6' 5" now adays might as well be considered that. It's just genetics over the space of generations. Who is marrying who, with tall traits. What about those shorties that are still shorter than 5 feet, or even smaller. Are we evolving smaller too?
Sad you are wasting your life believing there is not God. I know there is. I've had far too many experiences in my life to know there is. I can't deny it and I would be affraid to, because I know one day I'll meet my maker. What will He say to you? "Ye of little faith". Look around you. How can you possible think this all started from nothing. Or a big bang theory, which is just that, at theory. You have thousands of years of prophets who have seen God or angels from the other side. What would it take for you to believe?
Okay, it comes down to this. Either your right, and there is no God, no life after death. Or I'm right, there is a God, there is a great life after this. We will be with our families and everyone that we loved in this life. Which would you rather? I know know which one is true, and I know it just as I know I am sitting here today. It's just sad to see so many people who don't know that for themselves. Possibly because they have not allowed the faith in their life to see it.
posted by : TexasMommy3 on 1/7/2009 at 10:43 AM Flag For Abuse
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You really make a lot of assumptions, don't you, TexasMommy3. You assume I am of no faith. You assume I believe in a specific theory. You assume a lot. I gather in thoughts, opinions and information for all sectors of art, literature, science and philosophy. It's simply a life long pursuit of learning. It's like with politics, I read and learn from the entire spectrum.
What I wrote above is simply food for thought.
I too have seen incredible things that some would attribute to god. As a photojournalist I have also seen some utterly dreadful things that I would not wish on anyone.
I would suggest to you that blind faith, such as you have demonstrated above, is reckless in this day and this age of enlightenment. Might I suggest to you that you expand your horizons and read beyond your comfort zone. Or are you scared that you might find yourself challenging your own belief systems?
By the way, you were made by your parents. I'm certain of one thing and that is that god was not involved. Have a drink and think.
I'm signing off this discussion.
posted by : paultreacy on 1/7/2009 at 11:41 AM Flag For Abuse
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Okay, I really shouldn't be getting any further involved in this. Arguments of this sort never accomplish anything other than riling people up and further fortifying their previously held beliefs. But...
It's terribly ironic that TexasMommy3 cautions against having faith in theories of one or several men. (Like, you know, those men who wrote the bible, perhaps?) I can't even get into the uneducated and weird misunderstanding of genetics...
Speaking to irony more broadly, however, I must say it's amusing to think that people on both sides of this issue feel similarly about each other: "They're wasting their lives; There is clear evidence on my side; I feel I am right; Their ignorance is so sad." Clearly, we're not going to convince each other that our own beliefs are correct (and certainly not via a snippy message board frenzy).
So that's all I'm going to say.
www.drollerthanthou.com
posted by : smarah on 1/7/2009 at 12:02 PM Flag For Abuse
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It's true, going back and forth on a chatboard won't change anyone's opinions.
I'm just saying that my own personal experiences direct toward a God. That is it. You believe what you will. I believe for myself from what I have seen. I can't change anyone's mind. You have to have your own experiences to know there is a higher power. Best of luck to you all.
posted by : TexasMommy3 on 1/7/2009 at 12:45 PM Flag For Abuse
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I don't care what others believe as long as it doesn't cause ridiculous wars or infiltrate my life/government/etc. Why do so many who do believe in a higher power care so much that I don't believe? Just an honest question, not trying to stir things up, just wondering how my non belief affects them? (examples)
Just because God doesn't tell me murder is wrong, I do understand that it is and I don't commit it, I still have morals and core values as a human being.
My life isn't sad because God's not in it, I actually have to think hard to the answers of "why" because I can't just fall back on "it's His will" so yes, sometimes life's a little tougher now and then but I think it makes me a stronger person.
That's just me, like I said, I feel others have the right to believe whatever they want and I think some things about religion like the sense of community and basic stories of being a good person are great messages that we can all learn from, like we can from a good story.
I believe we came out of evolution, which takes thousands - millions of years and doesn't just happen over a few decades. I really wish we'd evolve to not have leg hair soon, I've been waiting for that one for awhile.
posted by : Lin the nonbeliever heathen on 1/7/2009 at 2:44 PM Flag For Abuse
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Delightful.
Well, our being mammalian means we are stuck with the stuff. But the cleverness we evolved has helped us overcome such inconveniences by inventing such things as disposable razors.
http://paultreacy.com
posted by : paultreacy on 1/7/2009 at 3:08 PM Flag For Abuse
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I absolutely LOVED that last paragraph. I, too, was raised without religion, and even though I do not want to bring religion to our family, I would like there to be some sort of spirituality woven in our lives. That last paragraph so perfectly expresses what "God" means to me that I think I will print it for further use! Thanks for writing with such beauty!
posted by : KTame on 1/7/2009 at 8:31 PM Flag For Abuse
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Thank God for the 20% of people who answered "NO" in the related poll. The world needs more atheists.
When my children ask me what happens when people/animals die, I'll tell them, "Your body returns to the earth and nobody really knows yet if some intangible part of you continues on. It's one of the wonderful mysteries of life!" I think that's enough of an answer.
I have to add, with much glee, that I think Christianity is probably one of the most repetitive, mind-numbingly dull, and unintellectual explanations possible for our origins or our fate as a species. The fact that Christians have such a difficult time seeing direct parallels between their "savior" and all the other "saviors" in our collective mythology is both laughable and sad. Come on, people. Jesus could be called anything. The story could be told by any culture, anywhere in the world, during any time. It's a story, for Christ's sake! Wake up. We don't need to be saved from anything. Humanity is actually doing extremely well, many of us without any religion at all. If I don't believe in God my life is no worse off at all. And who cares what happens when you die? You're dead. That's kind of the point of being dead: Your life is over. It isn't complicated.
posted by : HoneyHayes on 1/11/2009 at 6:51 AM Flag For Abuse
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And ejmama, why in the world are you recommending Mormonism to anyone!?! Have you not seen the South Park episode exploring this particular religion? How could you possibly take seriously any religion that believes that the Native Americans are a lost tribe of Israel who came here on boats?? I go to Hill Cumorah every year and the story is no less goofy with additional tellings of it.
I don't know how people can believe in this stuff. Or any religion, really. If you spend a few minutes thinking clearly about, none of it makes any sense or has any actual use. Delve a little deeper with a few college courses in religion or philosophy and you'll become an atheist fairly quickly.
After being raised Jewish, I decided to read the bible cover to cover at age twelve, and my BS meter went so far through the roof that it basically took me a couple of hours afterward to become an atheist. How did I so quickly come to that conclusion? Because I realized: "IF I DON'T BELIEVE IN ANY OF THIS MY LIFE WILL BE NO DIFFERENT." I could not see a reason to believe in the god described in the bible, or any god with a supposed punish/reward system. There were too many obvious contradictions and too many philosophically sound ideas there were completely left out of the bible all together. It made no sense to me that anyone could read the bible and be like, "Yes, this all makes sense... I should believe this..." And I was 12. How can adults believe in these things? And worse, how can you foist them onto your children and completely warp their natural understanding of an empirical reality?
posted by : HoneyHayes on 1/11/2009 at 7:06 AM Flag For Abuse
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For what it's worth, my husband and I are non-believers and were both brought up by atheists. We've had this discussion many times and although our two-year old hasn't asked the big questions yet, we're agreed to tell him the truth - literally. Using the author's example, our explanation is that the worm has gown back to the dirt to become food for flowers and other plants. Part of the worm will always exist, but in other ways. In the case of a dead pet or person, we'll add that the pet/person will always be with us in our memories and in all all the wonderful things they left behind (their art, their words, the things they taught us,etc.).
This explanation is also part of the larger lessons we hope to instill in our kids - an appreciation for the ways we are connected to the earth and all the things and people in in.
posted by : terram on 1/11/2009 at 5:56 PM Flag For Abuse
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Sometimes I wish I had religion. It seems to comfort those who have genuine faith in it. However, I am a huge history buff and understanding history makes it hard to believe in a god. Also, even if I could train myself to stop questioning I simply cannot believe in a god that would allow things like child pornography to exist. I mean, that would mean an uncaring or powerless god. That wouldn't comfort me at all.
posted by : mchaos on 1/18/2009 at 1:03 PM Flag For Abuse
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The last few comments are terrific. Amen!
http://photohumourist.com
posted by : paultreacy on 1/22/2009 at 3:12 PM Flag For Abuse
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I agree. I would LOVE to believe. It would have made my father's death much more bearable. Unfortunately I can't lie to myself. I'd rather say "I don't know" than believe an obviously man-made story with no proof except "you just need faith".
Why can't humans admit that we don't know (and may never know) everything?
posted by : kiwichic on 2/4/2009 at 2:10 PM Flag For Abuse
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You have hit upon so many of the feelings, doubts, and concerns that I, and so many of my gen-x friends, are dealing with. Thanks for making us laugh, think and feel connected!
posted by : Sydness on 3/10/2009 at 1:24 PM Flag For Abuse
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The article caught my eye as I am the mom of four and really want to help my kids develop a connection with spirituality.
I was glad she quoted Mimi Doe as I"ve found her work to help me enormously and her book: Busy but Balanced is my bible for staying sane.
posted by : MaggiePine on 3/11/2009 at 7:19 PM Flag For Abuse
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This debate is the same one that's been raging since the dawn of civilization. No one here is especially brilliant and original in their observations. But there are scientists, and historians who despite all the knowledge and understanding of the world and the way it works and has always worked, and still find a way to have faith and spirituality. But defining the meaning of faith and spirituality has never been and will never been easy. To me, your belief that we die and become part of the earth which allows more things to grow is just another form of spirituality. Faith and Spirituality are overwhelming. So much bigger than us that everyone has to find a way to contain it and apply it to their lives in a way that make sense. For many many - organized religion helps trap that powerful source in an easy to manage format. For others - it's easy to simply accept 'not knowing'. Some are comforted knowing Jesus loves them, others comforted by knowing that the worm dies, and fertilizes the earth to produce more another day. To me, its all variations on faith and spirit. Every person finds a way to make sense of the things in this life that don't quite make sense.
posted by : jeffsaunt on 4/20/2009 at 9:37 PM Flag For Abuse
