feedback for "Are We Really Such Monsters?"

  1. I agree and by being concerned about these issues it really distracts people from real child abuse occurring in their communities. I even label myself as an attachment parent, I went to a pro-breastfeeding rally at my state capital. Yet would I call formula feeding or CIO child abuse? No. Not the best or easiest way of parenting, definitely. It is ok to have a viewpoint, it is ok to strongly believe in something, but not to the point of being an extremist.

    posted by : dhsredhead on 8/18/2008 at 1:25 PM Flag For Abuse

  2. Religion only becomes abuse when used to control a child. Punishment for not memorizing versus, threats of hell and damnation for not asking Jesus into your heart etc....My father used these tactics as did the people in the church "teaching" me. I will never treach religion as a valid idea to my children. They can decide for themselves when they become adults.
    I wouldn't say formula feeding is abuse, but it is a waste of great immunity boost and bonding. I don't care what formula feeders think...bottle and boob when it comes to nurturing are far different in form.
    Breastfeeding into school age is probably not wise but not abusive. I breastfeed one child for 2 1/2 years and one for 1 1/2 years. All children have a different time clock for when they are done.

    posted by : carlie on 8/18/2008 at 1:34 PM Flag For Abuse

  3. I have to go with Carlie. I think the recent case of a 1 year old starved to death by his religious cult mother because he wasn't saying Amen at dinner highlights the dangers religion can pose to a child.

    Now, is starving a child tantamount to teaching them Intelligent Design? Of course not. I’m not heading down that slippery slope. I will be the first to admit people like myself, weary of religion, can too easily lump all the offences (big and small) together. Nonetheless, I am no fan of Intelligent Design. Intelligent Design does not position itself as a supplement to regular scientific knowledge, but aims to refute it altogether. Problem is, Intelligent Design encourages ignorance, mental apathy and an utter disregard for the truth. I think we are all versed well enough in the modern Newspeak to know if a theory must label itself "intelligent" it is anything but.

    I am not an atheist with knee jerk reflexes to anything "religion." I am a Deist. I do believe in God I believe he blessed us with a brain in order to use it. The infinite possibilities of this universe, possibilities only science revealed to us, hold more spirituality for me than any effort to fit all known existence into a box.

    The author is right; child abuse is the hot word at the moment to show disapproval for the parenting of others. I would never claim Intelligent Design, force feeding lies and killing the curiosity of our young, is child abuse. It's just a shitty way to build a civilized society.

    posted by : Cole Gamble on 8/18/2008 at 2:33 PM Flag For Abuse

  4. In response to the title question, yes I believe alot of us are really such monsters. We have become desensitized to seeing our children as people who have valid needs and see them instead as beings who are less deserving of the love and respect that often we ourselves demand. My son slept just as little for the first while and yes I was tired, but I never doubted that there was always a reason he was waking up or crying (usually that was simultaneous for at least the first few months). Even if he just needs to be picked up so he can burp or pass gas to fall back asleep, there is always a reason for what he does. When they are so little, they can't just roll over or sit up for a second to make themselves feel better, or go to the kitchen to make themselves a quick snack if they are hungry in the night. They need you! If you put yourself in your childs situation it becomes very clear that this is their way of communicating and I think it is our role as parents to be attentive to their needs.

    posted by : RebekahMay on 8/18/2008 at 2:51 PM Flag For Abuse

  5. In this day of over-information, "shock and awe" has become the norm.

    By definition almost anything can be termed "abuse" it really is a very vague term.
    "Abuse refers to the use or treatment of something (a person, item, substance, concept, or vocabulary) that is seen as harmful. The term comes from the words "abnormal use". It can be used for anything ranging from the misuse of a piece of equipment to the severe maltreatment of a person. " en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse

    ANY desision you make for your child can and probably will be seen as abusive by somebody in this world.

    posted by : rikkicarey on 8/18/2008 at 3:34 PM Flag For Abuse

  6. First, I agree with the basic premise that it is ludicrous, and insulting, to jump to the term "child abuse" -- just like trying to win a political argument by calling someone a Nazi who isn't actually attempting genocide.

    However, I was surprised to see that this was a set-up for discussing the AP issue specifically, especially since this is a family that considers itself "AP."

    I would beg to differ that "mother present at sleep onset, giving food or drink when child awakens" are "typical attachment parenting behaviors" or the implication that these continue "past age two."

    Even AP gurus like Sears and Pantley recommend soothing to relaxation and sleepiness, not to sleep. And both see no problem with night weaning as desired once the baby is developmentally old enough.

    I feel like a straw man was set up and then knocked down. AP is just a philosophy of gentle and responsive parenting, the details and practices are up to the parents. Some parents are overly permissive with their toddlers (and were before "AP" existed as a term) just like some are overly harsh...but I don't think of this as being part of attachment parenting at all.

    At any rate, yes, let us save the term "child abuse" for true abuse and neglect...and no one religious, ethnic, or social group has a lock on monstrosity. A person of any background might be an abuser.

    posted by : CaliMama on 8/18/2008 at 4:30 PM Flag For Abuse

  7. Take a look at any fast food restaurant and you'll see a family with grossly overweight little children stuffing down hamburgers and fries. That is child abuse, is it not? Daming your child to a life of health and social problems because you're too soft to say no and offer a carrot?

    posted by : mrb on 8/18/2008 at 5:05 PM Flag For Abuse

  8. mrb, I would argue that your comment is exactly the kind of thing that the article is arguing against. No, stuffing your kids full of burgers and fries isn't child abuse. Bad parenting? Sure, probably (I won't get started on the whole discussion regarding fast food being cheaper than lots of healthy options- we all realize we can cook more cheaply and healthily than buying fast food every day, but there is also the investment of time that it takes to cook, which a working single mom might not have, etc.). But, I would say that no, feeding overweight kids poor food is NOT child abuse. Child abuse is actual immediate harm to the kid, and while I guess an argument can be made that the kids' cholesterol, etc. is suffering immediate harm, that is not even close to the same category as a fist to the face. The kids are being fed. Poorly, yes, but fed, which means their basic needs are being met. That is not abuse, even though we may be appalled by those parents' choices.

    posted by : Dwtintx on 8/18/2008 at 5:35 PM Flag For Abuse

  9. Dwtintx,

    You're right, of course, but I would argue that it's a form of child abuse, just like consistently telling your kids they're nothing so that - eventually - they grow how they grow as a result of that "abuse". It's not a fist to the face in that there's no immediate mark, but it's there nevertheless.

    But yes, it's far more complicated than that and my example was too broad.

    posted by : mrb on 8/18/2008 at 5:54 PM Flag For Abuse

  10. mrb, what's your position on using phrases like "stuffing down hamburgers and fries" to inform children how repulsive and disgusting they are for eating food while overweight?

    posted by : CD on 8/18/2008 at 6:18 PM Flag For Abuse

  11. You touched on a pet peeve of mine, here, Mr. Polycarpou. I refer to this sentence:

    - We settled on one written by Dr. William Sears, the pediatrician who coined the term "attachment parenting"... -

    Dr. Sears is not the be-all and end-all of attachment parenting. I have a ton of continued frustration with people who have no idea that attachment parenting is actually based on years of scientific and scholarly research (Bowlby, Small, Freud), not something that Dr. Sears made up wholesale.

    Phew.

    Other than that, I do agree with the sentiment of the article, if not every point you've made.

    posted by : hippygoth on 8/18/2008 at 9:40 PM Flag For Abuse

  12. Though I differ with the author regarding child rearing, I am in complete agreement that the term and idea of child abuse is used for parenting decisions we simply disagree with. See many of the comments for an example. Child abuse denotes criminality; would you contemplate legislating against religious teachings and fast food (regardless of the enforcability - would you if you COULD, theoretically)? If not, then don't call it child abuse.

    There are a lot of people out there making parenting decisions I completely disagree with. It isn't black and white - perfect parent or abusive parent. There is room for a lot of error, bad judgment and bad calls before one crosses that line.

    posted by : Eng Mama on 8/18/2008 at 9:44 PM Flag For Abuse

  13. I agree that the term "abuse" should be reserved for only cases of actual abuse - physical, sexual, verbal, etc.

    And yet I agree with RebekahMay in that society has really turned babies into inconveniences to be managed, rather than dependent people who need love and attention. Look at the example in this article - a baby had reflux, and so woke and cried at night because it was more painful upon laying down. Rather than exploring the problem, the doctor advised to lay baby down to cry alone and uncomforted until he was exhausted to the point of giving up. The laying flat and crying only made the reflux worse and more painful to baby. It was incompetent of the doctor, and a bad call on the part of the parents. Parents who had already read and learned about how children at 5 months don't have object permanance, and how cry-it-out is detrimental to infants.

    As for the origin of attachment parenting, the term was coined by William Sears, but it is a practice as old as time. "Natural Parenting" seems a more fitting term.

    posted by : Momto4 on 8/18/2008 at 10:01 PM Flag For Abuse

  14. I hear you, mrb, and I agree with you that there are definitely nuances. I guess the article hit a nerve with me, because it feels like there are so many legitimate CHOICES to be made in parenting, and it feels like we are so polarized that we start hurling the "abuse" epithet when we merely disagree with the way others parent (I don't except myself- I try not to judge, but of course I do). It's exhausting! Both to be so judged and to be so judgy. What I took from the article was not an indictment or endorsement of AP, but a broader point that in MOST cases, we are all doing the best we can, and our kids will be fine, and we should really cool it with the abuse language, because it really cheapens actual abuse.

    posted by : Dwtintx on 8/18/2008 at 10:11 PM Flag For Abuse

  15. Dwtintx...okay, you sold me. I hereby rescind my previous analogy of fat kids eating 1500 calorie happy meals as child abuse. As we understand the definition of child abuse this doesn't qualify.

    But I still stand by my personal feeling that many of the choices some parents make are borderline abusive to the happy, healthy and successful futures of their children.

    CD...I don't see what you're getting at...?

    posted by : mrb on 8/19/2008 at 12:42 PM Flag For Abuse

  16. Abuse, as far as I see it, has power and/or violence as overriding themes. When parents belittle their children to make themselves feel more powerful (after having been powerLESS at the hands of their parents, perhaps) it's abuse. Or when a child's physical being is violated deliberately and maliciously, it's abuse.

    Making shitty decisions because a parent is too weak/ignorant/lazy to do better, is not abuse. It's just really bad luck for that kid.

    posted by : Chris on 8/19/2008 at 2:03 PM Flag For Abuse

  17. As an early childhood teacher in Denver, I have several comments in response to this article. I absolutely agree that using the phrase "child abuse" in reference to sleep training or any other slightly controversial but definitely untraumatic parenting choice is a big mistake.

    First of all, the practice of letting the child cry in the crib until he falls asleep seems very appropriate to me because we actually have a very similar way of handling crying children when they come to school for the first time. Every year, at the beginning of ECE there are always a few children that cry on the first day of school. Although, it seems cruel, we ask the parents to bring the child into the classroom and then leave. Then, we allow the kids to cry their eyes out until they get over it. In most cases, it lasts less than 5 minutes and then the child is fine for the rest of the school year. However, in cases where the parent insists on sticking around until the child gets comfortable, talking the kid through it, etc., etc., the crying usually lasts a lot longer. In effect, the parent is training their kid to cry. The message the kid gets is the more I cry the more my mom or dad will stick around. This method in the long run does not help a child develop independence. Likewise, establishing a routine and teaching a little bit of independence and discipline, which are all essential to raising an emotionally healthy child, can start in some forms as early as infancy. Sleep training may be an example of this.

    My second point is that as an Early Childhood Education teacher, I have come across my fair share of questionable parenting choices. However, in most of these cases, I choose to respect the parents' choices, give advice when appropriate, but also honor the fact that they have experience of their own to draw on and are doing the best that they can. No parent is perfect. I also have come across my fair share of true cases of child abuse. Real child abuse that results in an enormous amount of trauma, fear, and despair is unfortunately alive and well in our country. When I hear people joking around about things like abuse or using the term to refer to things like breast-feeding versus bottle-feeding or sleep-training versus attachment parenting, it makes me a little ill, because I've seen the effects of real child abuse and I don't think it's a term that should be tossed around lightly just to make a point.

    It's true that modern parents face a lot of anxiety and insecurity about whether the choices they make are right. However, no matter how perfect a job one does (perfectionism can also have negative effects), there is going to come a time when your child will grow beyond what you've taught them and will question some of the choices that their parents have made. This is part of the natural cycle of events and is as it should be. I guess the real question might be, when this time comes, will your child look back and decide that all in all, what they got from you was more good than bad? In the end, have your choices done them more good than harm? If so, then you're probably on the right track.

    posted by : TinaECE on 8/19/2008 at 2:11 PM Flag For Abuse

  18. Thank you, thank you, thank you for saying this.

    I am tired of people castigating loving and well-meaning parents as abusive because they makes choices they disagree with.

    There are many, many child who suffer horrific abuse in this world. It is disrespectful to diminish and marganilize their pain by comparing their situation to ones in which the parents may be overworked and overtired, or, granted even lazy or uninformed.

    Perspective people! The self-righteousness and intolerance in some of these comments is shocking.

    posted by : Don Mills Diva on 8/19/2008 at 4:59 PM Flag For Abuse

  19. Tina, I don't know how old your little charges are, but I suspect the reason most babies cry when their parents leave is because biology has programmed us. The babies who keep a trusted caregiver close are the babies who live, because that trusted caregiver will feed them and change them and fight off anything that wants to eat them. If the trusted caregiver just goes walking off all the time, it would be hard to expect a secure attachment.

    If you're taking care of three-year-olds that can already grab their own food, hit with their own fists and make themselves understood with language, rather than cries, then you are talking about something else entirely.

    posted by : catmom on 8/20/2008 at 12:54 AM Flag For Abuse

  20. mrb,

    I know this is straying kind of far from the topic, but Happy Meals are about 650 calories according to the McDonald's web site (I assumed small cheeseburger, small fries, milk, which is the composition of the Happy Meal my son had this weekend while we were traveling). The adult meals are closer to the calorie content you quoted.

    Anyway, I have occasional contact with a nine year old who can barely read or add and his parents aren't getting him any help. His parents are absolutely making choices that I believe will negatively affect his chances of having a happy successful future - and yet even so he's regularly fed, has a warm bed to sleep in, safe and adequate supervision, is never hit, etc. There are a lot of truly abused kids who would love to have their status upgraded to his. Abuse isn't synonymous with sucky parenting to me.

    posted by : diera on 8/20/2008 at 1:40 PM Flag For Abuse

  21. "and fight off anything that wants to eat them"

    Where on earth do you live? Why are your children in danger of being eaten?

    posted by : WonderingWilla on 8/20/2008 at 2:01 PM Flag For Abuse

  22. Here at the McTubbins Institute we believe in an approach of "convenience attachment" - being attached to our children just as long as it doesn't inconvenience parents (e.g. not interrupting a movie or quality TV show). It sounds like this is somewhat analogous to the rather laissez-faire approach Mr. Polycarpou supports.

    posted by : Chester McTubbins on 8/20/2008 at 7:19 PM Flag For Abuse

  23. Dear Wondering,
    Walk outside the house. Put your baby on the ground. Walk away. Don't act concerned if your baby cries - wait until after he or she is bitten. After all, you wouldn't want to spoil him or her.
    When we're defenseless, we're all in danger of being eaten, even in these modern times.
    Bugs. Rats. Dogs. Crows.
    They don't have those where you live?
    Maybe they have these:
    http://tampabay.com/features/humaninterest/article750838.ece

    posted by : catmom on 8/21/2008 at 2:17 AM Flag For Abuse

  24. "Walk outside the house. Put your baby on the ground. Walk away."

    This is absolutely insane. Why did you do this? Did you learn from your mistakes and resolve not to do it with subsequent children?

    posted by : WonderingWilla on 8/21/2008 at 12:28 PM Flag For Abuse

  25. As a Marriage and Family Therapist I have had to make many suspected child abuse reports in which parents or other caregivers have sexually and/or physically abused or severely neglected their children and thus completely agree with just about everything in this article. I do however take issue with the suggestion that there is a "psychotherapeutic assumption that anything less than perfect parenting could damage a child for life". This does not come from psychotherapy. In fact there is a term called "good enough parenting" that points to the errors that all parents make as opportunities for a child to grow and learn and that a so called "perfect" parent may stunt independence and growth ( a crude nutshell of a description) but the point remains: This may be a modern parental anxiety as you so rightly call it but it certainly is not founded in psychotherapy.


    And one more thing for you folks who can't help but make snide remarks about how formula feeding is not "best parenting": if one studies infant and child development one will learn that attachment is not about the boob it is about quality of attunement and connection between the baby and caregiver (who could be a man!) which can be equally fostered with a bottle of formula.

    posted by : 2cents on 8/21/2008 at 11:36 PM Flag For Abuse

  26. I, too, am annoyed at what people will coin "child abuse." Having worked in public child welfare, I feel that the flippant use of the term totally trivializes what truly abused children have endured as well as the struggles they will face for the rest of their lives.

    As parenting becomes more involved and more scrutinized others feel they have the right to criticize others for their choices. Frankly, people have to make choices that are right for their families and those choices will give them the opportunity to be the best parents they can be. We should all be in parenting together and respect each other choices and not make other parents out to be horrible because they don't subscribe to the same parenting philosophy. I think it is important to hear someone's story and history before judging them.

    posted by : jgd on 8/24/2008 at 1:25 AM Flag For Abuse


   
  
 
 
   


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