Strollerderby

Story is true that black votes probably cost the gays the Prop 8 vote, but the author needs to check her math on the 60% - 70%.

it is 70% and that's disturbing.  I know those black gay people.  They are disowned by their families and shunned in black communities.  Also lots and lots of people are actually racist.  The election didn't cure us of our civil rights problems.  We need to look at ourselves.

I know it's not the main point of this article, but:

"A minority of white voters voted for Barack Obama.  Don't believe me because every white person you know is an Obamanic?"

Actually, if you're a white person who voted for Obama, it's very likely that all the white people you know did as well.  People vote in clusters -- white urbanites for Obama, rural whites, not so much, etc.

No, it's totally the right's new favorite wedge issue: teh blackz did this to you!!!  Hateses them, because they hateses teh gayz!

But I think most people are on to their tactics by now... or, at least I hope they are.

I am appalled by the HATE that no on prop 8 supporters are showing right now. I read an article today written by a thirty-one year veteran of the Los Angeles Police Department, who is also Mormon. He wrote about the violet attack on the LDS temple in LA. I am truly disappointed by the gay activists, the are not about Love, the only thing that I see is Hate--

--Election day in California saw numerous No On 8 activists distributing literature and vocalizing at polling sites in clear violation of election laws. Police were called, 100 yard distances from the polling places were paced off, yet the agitation continued.

I learned at the rally several of our ward members had received hate mail after their names, religious affiliation, contribution mounts, and addresses were published on a website inciting No On 8 supporters to target the listed individuals. Their houses and cars had been vandalized, their campaign support signs stolen, and opposition signs planted in their place.

On Thursday, however, two days after the election, rumors began to be picked up by LAPD of a large protest organized by gay and lesbian activists and their supporters to be staged outside the Los Angeles LDS temple on Santa Monica Boulevard in West Los Angeles.

In the Bureau command post there was a large screen television displaying scenes from the protest outside the Los Angeles temple. Imagine my surprise, when angry protestors began rushing the closed temple gates, and I heard an officer in the command post say, “I hope they burn that place to the ground.”

Imagine my even stronger surprise when another officer replied, “They better hope they don't get through the gates, because the Mormons have an army in a bunker under the temple that will come out and kill them all.”

I'm now doing a slow burn. Not only am I watching a sacred building under siege from 2,500 angry people shouting, “ SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND HATE,” and carrying signs proclaiming MORMON HATERS and LOVE NOT HATE, I'm listening to other police officers who agree with the protestors or have the most imaginative fantasies about blood atonement armies hidden under the temple (exactly how do we feed them, drill them, get them in and out without anybody seeing, or are they all in a state of suspended animation until needed?).

The worst, however, was yet to come. The temple presidency made a decision to close the temple for the evening. The right decision, but since when do we as Americans stand by – no matter what our religion – while access to a place of worship is forced to close down because of aggressive outside influences?

The late local news showed scenes of several Hispanic females in tears outside the temple trying to remove the signs desecrating the walls and fences surrounding the temple. As these individuals – who according to a temple spokesperson were not church members – removed the hate-filled signs, the mob exploded and began beating the individuals to the ground.

Police intervened and arrests were made, but the fact this was allowed to happen at all was appalling.

In the face of hatred, how are we to feel about this focused attack upon our church? An attack launched not because we are the only supporters of Proposition 8, but because we have been the most visible and financially supportive entity in the battle. We are an easy target.

Editor's Note: As some of you know, Meridian (church online newsletter) was hacked into last week, apparently by Prop 8 opponents, and in the place of our content was placed a homosexual pornographic film.

I agree with Megan. It is horrible to treat people this way. If you want to protest and have a legal friendly protest, then do it. Americans have the right, freedom of speech ya know. But the fact that they are treating people so horribly because of their moral beliefs is just unforgivable. They are sending a message of Hate not Love. And I would never support that, no matter what the issue is.

Why is this being allowed?

Thank you for agreeing that the gay activists are acting and treating others wrong.

All sides involved feel very passionately about this issue, and spreading HATE and anger will not fix anything for anyone.

Pointing fingers and blaming others is not the correct answer for anyone.

If you have questions about the LDS faith, please go here;

www.mormon.org/.../eng

I don't think "the Mormons" need to be demonized. I understand that people are looking for an outlet for their anger and frustration about this measure passing. And yes, the LDS church procured the funding for the horribly misleading propaganda that inarguably tipped the balance. This is unforgivable. So there is anger toward that entity. And Mormons are a minority religion that are largely misunderstood and marginalized to begin with. So they're easy to point the finger at.

There are forces of divisiveness and discrimination which pushed this measure through. That's more complex than a simple label. When you're trying to organize a protest or vent your anger and hurt at being discriminated against personally, it's easier to do it at a target. Many of these anti-gay forces this time came from the LDS, so that's the target.

But no, meeting hate with hate is not the answer, and stereotyping a whole religious group (or racial groups, per Shannon's original point) is not the answer. As queers & queer allies, we need to protest the revocation of rights that should be ours without falling for the divisiveness. We also need to protest without losing perspective and context. But we do have a right to protest this injustice.

One last point:

There is a big difference between sending hate mail, vandalizing cars and houses, and "stealing" lawn signs. Violence against people (or the threat thereof) is totally unacceptable. Vandalism is pretty iffy and probably doesn't win any converts. Lawn-sign replacing? That's fair game, sorry.

I agree with Emma 99% (disagree on the lawn signs). As for those who are saying why was the violence of protestors 'allowed' - allowed by whom? You acknowledge that the cops intervened, and there has not been *any* widespread endorsement of those actions by any gay organizations.

I am still livid, demoralized and really fucking angry that Prop 8 passed. Groups of people organized together to say, again, that I'm not fully human. But while I understand the urge to release that rage, it's just falling into a sensationalist trap to do so against individuals.

Like Shannon said, Prop 22 passed with a LOT wider of a margin. We are making progress, albeit slowly. And while it's cold comfort right now that my rights are denied by a *less* decisive majority, the progress that we've made is undeniable. Once the immediacy of the anger subsides, we're going to need to work together with everyone to secure rights for all. Some of the Yes on 8 folks probably won't ever see me as a person, and that saddens me. But it's not going to help anything if I shout at them and call them names.

We are progressing to a future with rights for all people - we have to choose if we're going to move towards it in a spirit of understanding and clarity, or if we're going to fight against it by focusing on how to place blame.

"The fact that they are treating people so horribly because of their moral beliefs is just unforgivable. They are sending a message of Hate not Love."

Oh, you mean like when No on 8 websites were hacked and vandalized?

www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid64689.asp

Or when a group of Yes on 8 demonstrators attacked a lone woman?

lezgetreal.com/.../my-violent-attack-by-yes-on-8.html

Or when a teenager demonstrating peacefully against Proposition 8 was threatened with a knife?

www.venturacountystar.com/.../nbfcdemonstration02

I don't condone violence on either side of this issue, and, like Alice, I think it's a poor way to effect social change. But castigating No-on-8 demonstrators for angry protests while ignoring the many violent and harrassing--and, yes, hateful--actions of Proposition 8 proponents is just unconscionable.

Way to be a gracious victor, Moviegirl. Not.

I don't quite see the IRS-violation argument on the Mormon (or Catholic) involvement on Prop 8.  I wish those institutions hadn't engaged in the very manipulative and erroneous ad campaigns, but I don't see the IRS-violation argument borne out.

That said, seems like (some) people who supported Prop 8, and engaged in all kinds of truly vile argumentation about the horrible dangers that same-sex marriage poses to our world, now expect there to be no consequences to that rhetoric.  A (small) majority of Californians voted to strip same-sex couples of rights that had been in the California constitution.  It makes total sense that many of us are mad about that now, and people who supported Prop 8 have to live with that.

The demonstrations outside the LDS temples--and in CA more generally--have been peaceful assemblies.  They have not been violent.

And all that said: Shannon is so right.  We need to avoid destructive finger-pointing.

Let's Pretend I am a yes on 8 voter.  I have just voted to rip happy marriages apart through rule of unjust law.  My side won! yay!  but OMG, these people, last week they were so happy and this week they seem so ANGRY.  I wonder what's bothering them?  They must be crazy.  All I did was vote to take something away from them, something really great, that I want ALL TO MYSELF.  Why don't they roll over and give up?  Why are they all so UPSET?  

s - you said it!

Why would anyone be surprised that people don't like having their rights revoked for being who they are? Why should anyone respect the feelings of their oppressors? It makes no sense to expect that.

www.thepetitionsite.com/.../protect-marriage-protect-children-prohibit-divorce

You know the meta irony of all this is that all these statistics being derived from exit polls have historically been innaccurate becuase exit polls are completly voluntary and don't sample everyone. Remember how Bush won in 2004 becuase he had moral values?

OK - Since I have weighed in on this issue on every other thread and see that megan Prince is just cross posting the same baseless accusations everywhere I'll weigh in here to.

Talking about forgiving and moving on is wrong. The people who bank rolled Prop 8 are not going to see the error of their ways by showing them happy, tranquil gay couples. Those have already been waved in their face - in Hollywood, in SF, everywhere you look.

The civil rights battle wasn't won by convincing the other side they were wrong... It was won by changing the law to protect civil rights and adding new protections to ensure those protections. Once it was clear that the civil rights protesters would not go quietly even in the face of violence and oppression and would keep fighting until they won people accepted.

People will accept this too...

And about the mormon church... Keep in mind it was the 70s when the mormon church changed it official rules that specifically discriminated against non-whites. Some say that the written rules may be gone but how many people of color do you see in the mormon church?

I think the white guys in Rome and Salt Lake City had far more to do with this defeat then anything else...

I also think we did not go to the black community and ask them to vote for us... we blew black voters off as bad as McCain did.. why should they vote for us?

I also cannot condone any sort of violent acts against anyone else or any group. However, the majority of what I have seen and heard in the media have been appropriate protests.

What I find astonishing is this attitude by "yes on 8"ers like moviegirl is that they are using the same argument they rejected when the same-sex marriage advocates used it on them. "Why are you angry and hating on us? Just let us live our lives!" Uh, sound familiar? I don't agree that hate begets hate is the way to go, however...when organizations such as the Mormon and Catholic Church act in such a hateful, bigotted and dishonest way, they shouldn't act surprised when there are consequences.

Moviegirl, I am assuming, based on your previous comments that you are married with children. What would you do if your marriage and your rights as your children's parent was nullified by the stroke of a pen based on what some strangers who have different religious views than you do voted your family down? Wouldn't you be fighting mad? Wouldn't you take action? Do anything you could to protect the ones you love?

Or would you just say, oh! So long, honey. I guess we aren't married anymore! And sorry daughter! I'm not your mother anymore! If you would just accept that as "differences of opinion" then maybe it is YOU that doesn't know the meaning and value of what a family truly is.

Can you clarify how the Catholic church has acted in regard to this proposition.  Not wanting to start anything here, I'm just curious, I haven't heard anything about it.  I'm Catholic and thought that Catholics in general were pretty sensitive toward gays.  This particular issue hasn't been spoken about from the pulpit in our parish and I'm interested in hearing more about it.  

Shannon,  Thank you for that link.  I've spent some time reading there, but not nearly enough.  I'll go back and better familiarize myself with this issue.  

"In the face of hatred, how are we to feel about this focused attack upon our church? An attack launched not because we are the only supporters of Proposition 8, but because we have been the most visible and financially supportive entity in the battle. We are an easy target."

Megan prince - I ask you, in the face of hatred, how are we to feel about this focused attack on our marriages? An attack launched not because CA is the only supporter of same-sex marriage, but because it is a state with a very visible and vocal locus of LGBT people who were knowledgeable of the violation and threat being posed to their civil rights? It was an easy target.

I don't care who tipped the scales on Prop 8 - everyone who voted Yes should be ashamed of themself, as an American and a human being. Don't wring your hands and cry when the hate you throw to the wind comes back and smacks you wetly in the face.

And Moviegirl, when you learn what love is and begin to practice it instead of merely preaching it, you can come back and tell me how to behave. Until then, stop embarrassing yourself.

Look! It's a musical!

www.funnyordie.com/.../prop-8-the-musical-starring-jack-black-john-c-reilly-and-many-more-from-fod-team-jack-black-craig-robinson-john-c-reilly-and-rashida-jones