Strollerderby

I really hope you are right, that our kids will fix it (I wish it would be fixed sooner, actually).  I'm very saddened to witness the passing of these modern-day discrimination (read: Jim Crow) laws and/or state constitutional amendments. Shameful.  Makes what for me was such a joyful night ~ and day today ~ bittersweet.

I can barely express my rage at the vote on Prop 8.

I honestly don't know if I can forgive the people I know who voted for prop 8.

While I take heart my daughters will help fix the state of affairs - too many people I care about right now are negatively effected by this hateful and wrong decision.

At least prop 4 didn't pass.

I am extremely saddend and dare I say surprised that Prop 8 and Amendment 2 in California and Florida have passed have passed. This is pure discrimination. I guess we can't have it all... we did get Obama which I am happy and relieved about. Sad nontheless, as I too know too many friends and family that will be affected by this.

Don't worry, gay marriage will have its day in the sun. Considering how quickly the morals of most in our nation are sinking, you should get the vote you want in another 10 years, maximum. As an outside observer, the issue that really ticked me off is the way Prop 8 came about in the first place: voters say no to gay marriage, but then the CA Supreme Court overturned it! So much for democracy. And you say conservatives want to restrict our rights?! This imposition of tolerance is so oxymoronic.

Agreed.  Right now we are in the middle of the gay civil rights movement.  Someday our grand-children will say, 'You mean same sex marriage was illegal?  Why?' And we'll have to explain the fear of our time. Keep up the good words! Best from Mexico - June.

Laura, you and your ilk are wrong...

The point of having courts and constitutions is so the majority can not impose its will on the rights of the few. Just because a majority support something doesn't suddenly make it right.

The internment of Asian Americans (mostly Japanese) during WWII was not right or legal even though it had popular support. Jim Crow laws were not right or legal even though they had popular support. Slavery was not right even though it had popular support. It is the job of the judiciary to impose right even when it isn't popular.

Why do you think the court appointments are life time? So the judge/justice can be free to make the right decision not the popular one.

Allowing gay marriage has nothing to do with your rights unless you want to marry a woman. NOTHING. Why? Because you have the right to believe what ever you want. But you don't have the right to impose those views on others. You can hate and fear and teach your children to hate and fear. You can even institutionalize hate and fear - but that doesn't make it right.

Laura, the fact is that it wrong to have people vote on civil rights issues. The sad fact is that they will almost always vote against civil rights. At one point in our history, most Americans thought African-Americans didn't deserve the same rights as white Americans, but does that make it right?

Yes, there is a lot of immorality in our culture (greed, dishonesty, etc.), but how can you call 2 people who live each other immoral? Could you please tell me why you think so. (And please do not say "it is in the bible". There are so many things in the bible that we do not consider appropriate today - slavery, beating our children, etc.)

June, I do agree - we will one day look back and wonder how we could have been so discriminatory.

Laura: I sure hope you're being sarcastic, because it's hard to believe that anyone could be silly enough to imagine that allowing gay marriage restricts anyone's rights.

So many comments already!!! Wow.

Unfortunately I don't think Laura is being sarcastic.  The fact that Prop 8 passes proves that intolerance and discrimination is alive and well and that fear mongering is still a viable campaign strategy (thank goodness it didn't work for the presidential election!).  

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how their "traditional" marriage has been affected by gay marriage?  What?  It isn't at all?  Hmmmm...

gpgirl, the shortest answer that I can make to your question: Opening the door to marriage (or legitimate relationships) to be defined as "people who love each other" also opens the door to legalizing pedophilia, "multiple loves" (i.e. more than 2 people in a "committed sexual relationship"), incest, and, in a worst case scenario, bestiality (this has been a real issue in Wisconsin). I don't argue from strict biological determinism, but I do believe that there must be some connection between body and spirit. No matter how much two spirits may love each other, same-sex bodies were not meant to fit together sexually. I mistrust "feelings-based" ethics. You may think that I'm alarmist or old-fashioned; I consider myself in many ways to be a pragmatist.

Bunny and pqbon: Marriage has, for the vast majority of human history, been a matter of societies and churches, NOT governments. I resent the intrusion of government into this matter, especially when, as in the case of CA, the public has already spoken. As I said, though, because marriage has been a SOCIETAL issue, it won't be long before society decides that it fully supports gay marriage. Gay marriage doesn't restrict *my* rights, I realize, but the action of the CA court acts against the voice of the people.

On a final note: Equating gayness with a "civil right" is, I would argue, fallacious. Skin color, sex/gender, physical handicap: these are all attributes. Homosexual behavior, however, is an ACTION. I think that there is a fundamental difference here.

My 4 1/2 year old put it best I thought.  We were walking to school past all the No on 8 signs and he asked me, "will people have to stop being married if No on 8 doesn't win?"

"Probably" I said.

"well, that's just awful" he said.

Yep.  That's just awful.  

PS "imposition of tolerance" NICE!  How DARE people want me behave like a human being?  hee hee.

Prop 8 will be settled by the US Supreme Court, and they will ultimately do the right thing.  Still, I agree that it will be our children who finish this fight for us.  Our grandchildren will be astounded to hear that gays were ever discriminated against, because really... how silly.

Actually, I stand corrected: the California supreme court is most likely going to strike Prop 8 dead because:

www.aclu.org/.../37706prs20081105.html

"The California Constitution itself sets out two ways to alter the document that sets the most basic rules about how state government works. Through the initiative process, voters can make relatively small changes to the constitution. But any measure that would change the underlying principles of the constitution must first be approved by the legislature before being submitted to the voters. That didn't happen with Proposition 8, and that's why it's invalid."

Thank god for the ACLU.

Even if prop 8 is defeated by the courts (which I HOPE beyond hope it will...) it still taught me two horrible things:

1) the mormon church can buy elections in my home state.

2) my fellow Californians are not the people I hoped they were.

I agree, pqbon. :(  It's terribly disappointing all around.

Knitty, thanks. Does anyone know why the Cal Supreme Court didn't make this a requirement in the first place? (Making the initiative have to be approved by the legislature.) From what I read, this was brought up to the court by the No on 8 people, and they said it would not have to go through the legislature, but that they left the door open for argument if the prop did pass. Can anyone explain why they did this?

I submitted a longer post here in answer to a question... what happened to it? Am I not allowed to speak?

Laura:

Maybe someone decided that we didn't want "your kind" to try and impose your "lifestyle" on others.  If we let people actually hear your ideas and views, who knows what might happen?

Isn't the whole idea for Prop 8 that we are not okay with letting people live their lives their way, even when it hurts no one, just because it makes someone uncomfortable or scared of the big gay boogeymen?

Maybe you don't like getting a taste of your own medicine, of being told to shut up or hide or erased because your very existence is an affront to others.  I bet it doesn't feel good.

Now imagine that someone told you that your family was not a family, that your child was not your child, that your whole life was an abomination because of who you love.

Maybe then you can begin to understand that tolerance that gays show you everyday when they do not spit in your face, even when they know you don't see them as equal.  We could learn alot about things like turning the other cheek and doing unto others from the LGBT community.  They don't try to retaliate against their neighbors. They just continue living their lives and fighting for equality, so that no one, not even the poeple who hate them will have to feel alien.

What the hell is wrong with people? Gay people are PEOPLE.  I am sick today.

Straightmom in support of LGBT, you are my new hero.

Laura--So you mistrust feelings-based ethics. Okay. So what, other than a feeling, determines your judgment that polyamory is wrong? Incest? Bestiality? Homosexual behavior?

"No matter how much two spirits may love each other, same-sex bodies were not meant to fit together sexually." Specifically what is the non-feelings-based warrant for this?

[I don't necessarily support incest or bestiality or whatever, I'm just trying to make a point.]

I just want to respond to a couple things Laura said in her second comment.  You correctly stated that throughout history marriage has been a matter of societies and churches, not governments, and you resented their intrusion on this matter.  BUT, marriage today, in 2008, is strictly a contract with the government; nothing more, nothing less.  Religion only plays a role in the custom you choose to marry but to be legally wed you need the permission of the state (you know that little thing called a marriage license?) So it's hypocritical to say you don't want the government interfering on this matter when it pretty much interferes in the matter of all marriages, including yours (if you're married or intend to be.)  Furthermore, you stated that legalizing gay marriage will open the door to legalizing bestiality, pedophilia, multiple loves, etc.  That is called a slippery slope and it is never a good argument to prove your point.  Absolutely none of those would become legal if gay marriage were to become legal, for numerous reasons, starting with the fact that a gay union would be between TWO CONSENTING ADULTS (and I do believe that is how the proposition was written.) I could make other arguments but I'm too tired.  

Madeline, thank you for making sure that made it up, even though clearly no one else wants to hear it, and perhaps you don't either.

To all: I should make clear that I in no way condone any "discrimination" against homosexuals beyond saying that a homosexual marriage is a sham. I don't support firing gays, banning them from moving into neighborhoods, etc. I'm sure that many would brand me a homophobe despite this; that's their perogative. I consider gay rights to be distinctly different than civil rights, as I view homosexual behavior to be deviant. You're free to disagree with me all you want, but please respect my right to disagree. And as I said, it's only a matter of time before gay marriage is a non-issue. So why force it down people's throats? And seriously, though this question may sound flip: What's the worst that can happen if gays are denied marriage? They can still live together, vote, many get insurance benefits, travel freely, etc. If marriage is just a piece of paper, why force your beliefs on others (in CA and other places, evidently the (slim) majority of others) who disagree?

i am so tired too - of this discussion

its really none of anybody's business who any adult marries

get over yourselves - did you care what people thought when you fell in love with your now or futre HUSBAND?!  no, well then leave these thousands or millions of other ADULTS alone to do as their heart desires!  talk about fundamental HUMAN rights issue being violated.  mind your own business all you moralistic chrisitan gunhoe perfect heterosexual bored morons!

there i said it

sorry to offend but jesus - you really dont realise how offensive all your judgements can be!!!

Laura - Bestiality...seriously!?!

Straight mom in support of LGBT - Not to make light of your wonderful comment, but imagining the "big gay bogeyman" is fun.  Thanks for that!

I wasn't aware that bestiality was a problem in Wisconsin. Maybe that explains their love of dairy. More cows, more choice of potential partners? Thanks for the enlightening info, Laura.

My boys will fix it too. I'm with ya.

Nobody's any different in our group of friends: gay, straight, married, partnered, male or female- my 3 and 4 year old love them just the same.

Kids don't hate naturally- parents impart that themselves.

This is not going to wait for my kids, I'm going to fight this, as will all my fellows.

The only thing Laura is right about is that we will probably have resolved this issue within ten years. As for the rest of it, I could spit it's so disgusting. How is letting other people have access to civil right "forcing" anything down your throat? Allowing gay marriage to exist will have no affect on your life, your kids will be exposed to gayness whether you like it or not. Churches will not be forced to marry gay couples, CA will not break off and fall into the ocean.

Get over yourself, it's high time that people came out and just said it, discriminating against gay people makes you a bad person.

As someone who was raised by biracial parents who had to fight tooth and nail to get married, I can't help but feel that the people who are trying to keep same-sex couples from getting married are the same people who tried to keep my own parents from getting married.

I've attended two commitment ceremonies in the last year, and at both there were tears from at least one person, expressing their dissatisfaction with the fact that it wasn't a "real" marriage. How tragic that there should be an undercurrent of sadness and frustration on what should be one of the happiest days in a person's life. :(

"...discriminating against gay people makes you a bad person."

You said it, Spartic!!

Yeah - Spartic that pretty much sums up my feeling on this issue.

lol all this discussion only one point comes up there should be no lows!!!! let every one do what ever they want why the hell is there any low in any country?? We (Humans) don't need lows if I kill someone it is my right to do that if he don't want me to do that then he must safe himself lol You guys are stupid lol I am just laughing while reading all this stuff just think for a while what are you saying actually?? The simplest thing is you must say "There must be no lows that's what future american children will fight for" lol Stupidddd.......

And you wont let it publish as you ate afraid and don't believe actually in freedom of speech

I find it ironic that supporters of the ban they are "protecting their children". "Protecting" them from what? My guess is they are thinking they are protecting them from "becoming gay" themselves? By protecting them from (in spite of their Bible mis-interpretations) marrying the person that they love?

These "protectors" seem to think that Prop 8 trumps law of nature (one is created how they are created)and that their child would never turn out gay.  They certainly aren't protecting their gay children from the certain self-esteem issues they will face, higher substance addition rates, higher rates of being homeless and joining the sex-industry as a basic survival skill, depression and yes, suicide.

Laura,

Ultra-paranoid women like yourself, refuse to accept that women like me, are all about consent.  Can you set aside whatever brainwashing you have suffered long enough to roll that around in your head?  

Let me try to explain.

We are the "weirdos" that fight for the rights of animals.  We fight for the rights of the raped, and we fight for the rights of children.  All the while, we hear over and over and over, that we are the incarnation of evil.  

Yet, on what planet would any of us, (women like me) allow an incapable-of-consenting animal or child, to enter into a legally binding contract?  Remember, us, Laura?  We are the "freaks" that wish to rid the world of pain.  We are the "demons" that refuse to accept the arbitrary rules placed on our fellow beings.  Not only is your pathetic, thoughtless, slippery slope argument shallow, it's also insulting.

Seriously, Laura.  I can't bring myself to bite into a hamburger.  I would rather kill myself than "spank" (pseudonym for "abuse") a child.

And yet I have to hear (from a thoughtless jerk like you, Laura) that because I can find absolutely no logical reason to prevent two consenting adults from declaring themselves legally obligated to one another, that I somehow approve of the rape of animals and children?  

Those who brainwashed you, Laura, have left you all messed up.  Somehow, the same people who holler that animals and children have no rights, have convinced you that people like me wish to rape, defile, degrade, and humiliate the weakest among us.

Is your only argument against two adults being allowed to enter into a legally binding contract that holds them responsible for one another, and each others' children, "what about the animals and kids"?  

Is that all you got?  

Until and unless, you loudly and clearly speak out against the abuse of animals and children to the point where you are marginalized by the rest of society, shut up, Laura.  Do not compare the "pain" of dealing with the prospect of a man entering a legal contract with another man to the pain of rape.

Get over yourself, Laura, and learn some empathy.

Mashell

I disagree severely with all people who label homosexuality as 'unnatural'.  Are you saying that homosexuality is a trait exclusive to humans, manmade? Well chew on this:

There are over 450 species of animals that have exhibited traits of 'being gay'.  

Nor is gayness a rising trend. There have been gays and lesbians in civilizations dating back to times before ancient Greece. And Greece was more tolerent of it than we are today. In ancient Sparta, homosexuality was a common practice, and was accepted.

The irony of this is how today, history books rant about the forward advances and imporovements in technology and social life that we have developed since ancient times.

Yet somehow, I feel as if we've taken a step backwards. I hope with a fiercity that we do not resort to using stone tools as well.

I'm not waiting on my kids to do it.

The buck stops here and I am proud to say that.

One of my best friends is a gay guy. I love him dearly. He's the best person and the brother I never had, pretty much. He has finally found the person he loves, but they can't get married because their state won't allow that.

Well, you know what, I've told him I don't agree with that, and in solidarity with him and with folks like him I'm not going to marry myself until he can legally too. I can. I'm female, straight and entitled, but I choose NOT to go there.

I can live with a "personal commitment ceremony" if he must and if living in that "exclusive club" of people that are heterosexual and legally married means I have to be a bigot to do it, marry a guy I love?

Then I can live without the civil paperwork, thanks.

This issue is one of the main reasons I decided long ago that Christianity just wasn't for me. (I have no problem with Jeshua of Nazareth, who incidentally didn't say one word against gay folks at ALL, unlike some of his disciples.) I just cannot be a part of any religion that declares itself the ONLY one, that actively excludes others for an irrelevant thing like a sexual preference.

There are two kinds of marriage in my book, marriage in the religious sense, which can be done or not according to belief, and marriage in a civil sense which should not be exclusive of anyone old enough to legally do the deed and yes, that includes 3 consenting adults if they so choose, because that too isn't any of my business and is so NOT the same thing as someone illegally wedding a child or an animal who is not capable of adult consent.

There will certainly come a day when the legal side of marriage will involve more than a 2 person, heterosexually based union. Am I worried that as a hetero person that my own right to marry will be compromised in some way?

No, not really.

I'll be there, clapping as my adult friends, of any gender, sexual persuasion, et all officialize their union, because you see I believe that ALL adults should have the same legal rights to marry partners who can legally consent regardless of whether I personally like the idea or not.

For the record I am not particularly in favor of things like polyamory. I am a confirmed monogamist but you know this is not the year 1008, this is 2008 and there are people who are capable of sustaining a 3 way relationship as adults and who should probably have the right to legally commit to doing so.

Yes, times are changing, but this is not so new, gay people in relationships wanting to commit and marry. The fact that gay people are being tolerated more that is changing, and that can't be but for the better for society as a whole, but truth be told there have always been gay partners, always will be, and as adults who love each other I do think it's bigoted in the extreme to deny them a civil right to marry if they want to.

Bottom line, Christians and others who deny gays the rite do not own marriage. Marriage has existed in many forms since we began. Only recently has it been a civil matter, license expected. The laws of one religion they cannot be applied to all. I don't care if Christian folks are terrified at the idea of gay love or gay marriages, legally these people are adults and they have as much right to marry legally as I do.

That some folks in our society would deny them even NOW is just too sad.

I mean wake up and smell the new century...

If you think gay people wanting to marry is SO wrong, well, all I can say is get ready for a real shock because someday when we're a part of the rest of the universe, and we finally meet the folks on the other side of the galaxy you may see FAR more bizarre things than 2 men or 2 women wanting to get hitched.

Are you folks just going to run away in abject horror when the day comes when you first meet a truly non-human, possibly omni-sexual being or beings?

Or are you going to accept and try to understand some culture that is TRULY different from your own?

I personally hope you folks remember that vote, because by then, it just may seem DARNED silly to you all in retrospect...

First and foremost, thank you for this wonderful post. I hope the next generation will have more sense.

Secondly, for those who think gay marriage is about the majority...you're wrong.  At one time, a majority thought segregation was right...so was it?  Also, at one time, a majority thought women shouldn't have the right to vote...so, was that right.  This is history repeating.  If you may recall from 2nd grade, you learned how at one time, a majority of the world thought the earth was flat...so, was it flat?

Now, to conclude, I have an idea.  Since Christianity is by no means the majority religion of the world, how about if we let those in the majority religion decide how and who everyone should worship!  Do we have a deal?