Strollerderby

My son isn't circumcised, so I'm not pro-circ in the least, but - couldn't a parent authorize a nose job or an ear tuck on a 13 year old if they wanted?  Those procedures are also not medically necessary, painful, and can result in complications, but that doesn't make them against the law if the family thinks the benefits outweigh the risks.

diera: It is not like a nose job.  It's a holy rite commanded by the Divine and steeped in thousands of years of tradition.  But yah, thanks....  

To Sager...

It’s not about whether he is a good Jew or a bad one.  He simply will NOT be Jewish to many conservative and orthodox communities without the circumcision.  It’s a necessary part of the conversion process amongst these more traditional groups.  A ritual circumcision with a small cut is done for those already circumcised.  But that doesn’t mean the boy cannot learn about Judaism, practice it and live, for all intents and purposes, as a Jew.  There are smaller ritual issues that will affect him.  However, I would assume any decent congregation would welcome him to pray and learn, while he waits to turn 18 and can complete his conversion and join the community as a Jewish man.  Conversion to Judaism can be a long process and for this boy it will be a little longer if ends up choosing to be Jewish. (BTW, anyone with a Jewish mother is considered a Jew under Jewish law regardless of circumcision)

This is nothing more than a classic debate between two parents whose beliefs and lives have diverged.  I’m a Jew and  I think it as a rational and restrained position to ask this family to wait until the boy is 18.  Children are often torn between divorced parents.  It is hard to figure out what he really wants and what he will think about his current choices.  I certainly don’t think the father’s religious rights would be violated.  It's not his body. Your rights over your child are limited. Also, the father’s rights do not trump the rights of the mother.  

I might have a different view if this was an infant, when youthful circumcision is relatively easy and picking out a religious path for your child is a reasonable act many people engage in.   But at 13 the biology is pretty much the same as it will be when he is 18, in terms of risks and pain. Waiting is an easy and reasonable option in my book.

As to the age....

Don’t some Muslims do it at a later age? I’m not keen on judging other people’s choices, so long as it doesn’t result in lifelong harm, like FGM.  Whatever extremists say, male circumcision is nothing like FGM.  Doctors can do it and ifthis young man wants to join a more conservative or othrodox community as Jew, he needs to have it done. It’s that simple.

BTW - all this... is not my opinion about whether it is the best attitude to take towards male converts, but a fact of current Jewish culture in many communities.  

From a practical side, I have known adult converts and others who had circumcision done as adults.  It is painful.  But it heals and there shouldn’t be any problems. Of course every medical procedure comes with some risk.

You know, your reasons for not doing it at 13 are all perfectly good reasons to not do it as a baby either.

McJJ,

You're assuming I'm not Jewish.  You're incorrect.  However, I'm pretty much an atheist at this point, so the 'holy rite commanded by the Divine' part held no weight for me.  The thousands of years of tradition did, and it was harder than I thought it would be to disregard that, but in the end I decided that traditions start somewhere, and they stop somewhere, and in my family, this one was stopping with my son.

That said, of course all of my male relatives are circumcised and it hasn't done them any major harm (and yes, I have asked).  I'm not an activist on the subject.  My point was that if parents are allowed to make the decision to have non-medically-necessary surgery performed on minor children in some cases, then presumably they can make them in all cases, and I'm not sure why having surgery performed so that your child's nose can be cuter is more acceptable than surgery performed so your child can be a full part of his religious community.

Disclaimers - I'm not Jewish and my son is not circumcised.

To me, the crux of the issue here is that the mother claims that the boy does not want to have it done. It's his religious freedom that is involved. If when my child is 13, he wanted to convert to Judaism and be circumcised or even get a nose job, we would discuss it and make a rational decision together. If I'm convinced it's an ok thing for him to do, I'll probably approve it. But I'm guessing no one would condone my forcing him to have plastic surgery when he doesn't want to, so why should circumcision be any different.

Let the kid grow up and choose his own religion without family loyalty involved.  He has 5 short years before he can make the decision himself.  I think God would understand even if his father can't.

can't you be anaesthetized for this? I didn't circumsize my sons because I am a christian, not jewish or muslim, but I would have thought that by age 13 they could give you something for the pain.

Actually, I'm not Jewish but am circumsized, a procedure I'm glad was done but am not sure I would elect myself to have done at that age. The father has no right here to force a circumcision on this boy. Wait five years and let him decide for himself. 13 is probably the worst age to decide if you want that sort of procedure done.

I will, however, speak against those that say it has no purpose to be done. Besides having significance to some religions, isn't someone desiring this procedure enough to warrant its purpose? Maybe someone thinks it looks better. Maybe they enjoy having less to clean and maintain downstairs? Maybe their significant other likes it better. Whatever the reason, if it causes happiness to its owner, that's good enough for me.

Anyway, it's the kid's junk, let him decide how he wants it to look - after he's old enough to know with greater certainty.