Straight From the Bottle

Sweetie I love you to pieces, and I really do know where you're coming from. The day my little Alexander took Jane's barbie doll and turned it into a gun, I realized that it's just what boys do.

They're wonderful little creatures, really, I'm pretty sure your husband played cops and robbers, and he's a pretty terrific guy.

ow.  my heart.

I too once upon a time tried to shield my children from all things bad in the world until I realized that someone else was going to teach them, and in turn probably give them misinformation.  

Instead we've chosen to be proactive, and explain that killing is permanent.  Like that ant that I just stepped on won't come back to life, etc.  Explaining that not everyone in the world is not kind, but that I will always be here to protect them and that there are things they can do to protect themselves.  

Its painful.  What I wouldnt give to bubble wrap them, homeschool them and never let them know that people are indeed very unkind a lot of the time.  Unfortunately I think at age 15 or so they would rebel against the bubble wrap and just end up more hurt than if I just prepare them.  :(

don't let the bad guys win. there were such things as kind boys when I was growing up, even when confronted with soldier boys.

Beautiful post Rebecca.  I don't know the "right" way to raise a baby in this world with SO much evil and violence.  But the fact is that you're instilling in Archer a good and kind heart-- and that going to be HUGE.  :)

We prepare the child for the path (not the path for the child) but they're still the ones to walk it and we can't control their interests.

Solon just had an article written by a man who's parents didn't allow toy guns, they were commune living pacifist hippy types, and it didn't stop him from having an interest in artillery. Nor did that interest turn him into a violent man.

It's not an answer, but it seemed like a relevant contribution.

www.salon.com/.../index.html

oh, i am so with you on this.  mine came home with the same 'bad guys' bit, and i, too, wanted to kill the kid who taught it to him, along with his parents.  no matter what we do, they're going to be exposed to it, so i'm in total agreement with habbala above:  teaching archer to be kind and gentle will make a difference in this world.  i KNOW it will.

Ah, don't worry about it. Explain to him that the only people who are allowed to have real guns are people who follow the rules, who are responsible, and protect people from bad guys.

Oh, and my 4 year old knows about death, from watching a bee slowly die after a dip in the swimming pool, to seeing a dead biker under a sheet with his helmet a few feet away and hid mangled bike and the ambulance, fire truck, and three police cars. His reaction: "I think he was not careful. Driving a motorcycle is dangerous."

The next day, while sitting on the sofa, he said: "Dad, I'm not going to drive a motorcycle when I'm older. I don't want to get hurt."

Let him experience the world as it is now, and he will form a correct picture in his mind of how he should behave.

Yes, he shoots the dinosaurs with the plastic soldiers. And he talks about rockets and explosions with the kids in the play yard. But he also knows that it's the police's job to take bad guys to jail and to shoot them if they try to hurt other people with guns. So he told me he wants to be a policeman when he's older. I asked him why. He said: "So I can protect the little babies from the bad guys."

He's four years old and understands that much!

And yes he does speak with that level of complexity.

So hang in there and let him experience the world as it is. He might surprise you yet!

(By the way, I'm no longer at Health Net.)

Rebecca, I do see where you are coming from. I am an animal/planet/people lover myself and have gone to great lengths to instill the same beliefs in my household. But the grim reality is that we live in a violent world. All you can do is be the BEST MOM you know how to be... which is by far better than a lot of the other parents out there. Plus, I mean... you DO live in L.A.... I mean, you know?

it sucks and it happens to all of us but it doesn't mean the end to innocence or anything. Explain your point each time but sometimes harping makes things go the other direction. Thanks to a recent obsession with star wars he is all into good vs evil and at times totally wants to be the bad guy. The good news is its make believe, trying to obtain some sort of idea of how this world works, the world he is slowly understanding around him. This all coming from the same kid who swaddles his babies, hugs them has parties with pink care bears and cries at sad songs. Also from the kid who doesn't get playground talk since he is home schooled.

I think there is a big line between boys/girls doing make believe and some kid hurting and "killing" (animals, etc.) who do it cause they are inherently not gonna be the good guy. Let's face it, we know that not everyone is good. Its logically not how the world works but kids really have no definition of kill, dead, etc. We make it something that it is not. We put words into their little mouths while all the while they skip off when they are done to rock their babies or build a fort. Just another aspect of parenting for us sensitive ones to learn things all over again.

it sucks and it happens to all of us but it doesn't mean the end to innocence or anything. Explain your point each time but sometimes harping makes things go the other direction. Thanks to a recent obsession with star wars he is all into good vs evil and at times totally wants to be the bad guy. The good news is its make believe, trying to obtain some sort of idea of how this world works, the world he is slowly understanding around him. This all coming from the same kid who swaddles his babies, hugs them has parties with pink care bears and cries at sad songs. Also from the kid who doesn't get playground talk since he is home schooled.

I think there is a big line between boys/girls doing make believe and some kid hurting and "killing" (animals, etc.) who do it cause they are inherently not gonna be the good guy. Let's face it, we know that not everyone is good. Its logically not how the world works but kids really have no definition of kill, dead, etc. We make it something that it is not. We put words into their little mouths while all the while they skip off when they are done to rock their babies or build a fort. Just an

Yes, I know where you are coming from although I must admit I gave in much earlier to the whole superhero/good guy/bad guy thing.  Here is a link that I found helpful:

www.pbs.org/.../index.html

It's from the same guy who co-wrote "Raising Cain".  Good luck and I think no matter what he comes home saying the stuff that is going to stick is going to be all the good guy stuff you taught him.

It's a tricky thing, and I feel your shock and distress.  My husband grew up military, and our son's godfather is a Marine.  I don't want to vilify the Marine I chose as a godparent by saying that "we don't kill bad guys."  I consider myself a pacifist, and as a teacher, I even despise sarcasm and derision, but I recognize that these philosophies are born of the relative peace and prosperity in which I live, brought to me by people like my son's godfather.  My husband admires my point of view, but he has...well, maybe a biological imperative towards "violence when needed," especially to protect.  He cautions me against all or nothing thinking.

My husband turned my son wanting to shoot into being a fire fighter shooting water.  He redirected pirates into being the Coast Guard.  When my son would say "I'm going to shoot the bad guy!", my husband would respond excitedly, imaginatively, "Okay, but how did the talking it out go?  We always do that first, right?  It's called negotiation!  It hurts us to hurt others, so we always try not to do it."  It diffused it.  It lessened it.  My son knows that in our house, we recognize violence can be required, but we hope never to have to use it.  In my experience, that's the prayer of every soldier and cop.  Is it a rationalization?  Perhaps, but it's been a middle ground for me.

Hi Rebecca, I know how you feel, but let me tell you a little bit of myself , by my name is Harmony and my sister's name is Sun, hint?? my parents were lovely hard working hippies. yes, i  grew up almost naked with no sense of shame, worry, anger or violence, the other kids i played with had the same upbringing, sooo what happend?? my first year in kindergarden and OTHER kids and their families, my first encounter with a mean kid was shocking and I did not know how to react/protect/understand why she would be mean, so I also cried, it was hard for my parents to explain and for a 4 year old to understand why not everybody is friendly. so with this i try to tell you that it's better he gets all the information from you and so that he is prepared when he meets someone not as nice and loving as he is, today it was a game so it was fun, but later he might encounter a mean kid and understand another way people can be.

i still ALWAYS look for the beaty in people, and hopefully I can teach that to my daughter too!

warmest regards

Armonia

We've been struggling with this one for a while now and yeah, it disturbs me greatly.  The other kids at daycare have taught Jack about bad guys and swords and shooting and killing.  I've repeated again and again that we don't shoot and don't kill and don't hurt people no matter what.  But I think part of their fun is pretending to do things they know they can't do in actuality (he also has fun pretending to be a dog that I won't let in the house).  :P  But yeah, I feel ya.

blood, guts, violence....hate to say it, but that's EXCITING stuff!  as adults we love to watch thrillers, vampires movies, etc for the exact same reason.  he's got a good mama by his side - he'll figure it all out and be just fine.  that pretend play is so important though.

My son is a wonderful, kind, sweet, odd little boy. Every mosquito, fly, or beetle that he encounters is his friend. He offers them food and water, and builds them little houses out of his blocks. His favorite book is Olivia, and he dances around the house in my shiny red flats, pretending to be a ballerina and a princess.

And yet, he, like so many other little boys and girls, is completely infatuated with superheroes and monsters. Although I don't allow him to have toy weapons, he fashions them himself, out of legos, sticks, spatulas, you name it. He runs around the house with his "ka-power" (he doesn't even know the word gun at 30 months), pointing it at the air and proclaiming, "ka-pow mean old monster."

When he first started doing this I was horrified and did my best to explain to him that shooting was wrong, monsters are really nice, and we should just makes friends with them. He looked at me like I was an idiot and calmly explained, "No mom, these are the BAD monster, not the good monsters."

We can try to protect our children from the horrors in this world all we want, but they still see it. They take in everything, and pretend play is one way that they can work it all out in a way that makes sense to them. He is still a sweet little boy, just one that wants to extinguish the bad in the world.

I am right there with you on that one.  I have been adamant that my children only watch educational tv, not play violent video games (we actually don't play any video games), not harm animals, etc.  I have tried to shelter them from all the ugly in the world but no matter how hard I try the outside will always get in.  It only took one day at a park for my son to be introduced to good guys/bad guys.  The problem was that he did not understand what the other kids were trying to play with him.  He kept yelling at them that he was not a bad guy, that he was a nice little boy. It took some explaining to him that they were role playing batman and robin, but he had never seen batman, spiderman, transformers or any other cartoon that would be similar to what the other kids were role playing.  I was at a crossroads as a mom.  My child was now different than the other children and was not having fun interacting with the other kids because he just did not understand what they were doing.  Do I let him discover these new subjects that the other children all knew about and were so happily playing or do I continue on as we were?  I still have not really answered this question.  We still don't watch what I would call the violent cartoons but I have purchased some transformers for him to play with so he will have one area that he can relate to the other children.  Although, we will not be watching the tranformers movies or cartoons.  I want him to make up his own play with the toys.  Mostly, he just makes them fly around the room or plays with them in their vehicle form. We have made strides towards fitting in with the other boys but I am cautious with advocating total conformity.  I want him to be strong in who he is and decide whether it is really worth it to just follow the crowd.  I think my work has just begun...  

In our house it's the girls who do fake battles and invent powers and weapons.  My boy reminds me of Ferdinand the Bull who sat under the cork tree and sniffed flowers.  He's much more interested in a nature walk.

We don't allow casual talk of using guns, and explain that in the Army where daddy works, guns are treated as dangerous and serious things.  We try to encourage different games whenever we can, but left to their own devices the girls want to have elaborate battles.  They know the difference between real pain and pretending, so I interject lessons where I can and trust them to be okay.

And your son is so young!  My brother at age 5 was famous for announcing he was going out to "Step Ants" and now he's a PhD candidate in entomology.  He cringes when he looks back on his ant crushing days.  Your son's pretend play doesn't make him less kind or sweet in real life.  He's lucky to have a mom like you to make sure of that.

This is a tough one--I had an idea, let me know if I'm off base here. He's at the age for fantastical thinking, so maybe next time this happens (and he's obviously indulging in a fantasy scenario), engage him on that level with your imagination? Maybe you can find a way to make peace in the story (Like, "oh, what do you think the bad guys are laughing at? will the bad guys be okay after you shoot them? where do their mommies live?" er something).

Also, you might ask archer why it feels good to shoot the bad guys (maybe it's a fantasy of him being powerful). maybe you could ask him if there are other ways to feel powerful that won't make anyone sad.

I don't think I would stop him from making believe that he is doing away with bad guys because they are indeed out there and, from your post, you obviously realize that.

Maybe he could suck the bad guys up in the dust buster and put them in the linen closet or a jar or something. No killing involved.

i was worried about violent play with my kids until my husband wisely pointed out what an amazing luxury it is to even have the option of training our boys to be anything but defensive and violent....cavemen did not have this option, many other societies still don't.  i think it's important to let boys go through the play that they need.  it's very easy to distinguish play from real, and to explain the difference, and to encourage thinking about ways to resolve conflict in ways other than brute force.  but to my mind, kids playing superhero and shooting bad guys does not equate to being a bully or having violent behavior.  i think this play is important on a psychological level.  please see this link re: "safe practice" and "benign masochism" -- sometimes play and dreams need to be violent:

happydays.blogs.nytimes.com/.../the-long-and-the-short-of-it

Most stories have the typical "bad guy" - Snow White was poisoned with an APPLE, after all.

I think you need to allow him to be a boy, just make sure it doesn't get out of hand or too physical (where somebody gets hurt).

I used to play these games ALL.THE.TIME with my big brother... we would play games where cars crash and explode and people die... but then the people come back to life and got married and played house (I would play his way but then he had to play my way). I got tired of these games when I was 8 or 9, playing Power Rangers with my brother and his friends in our backyard.

My brother STILL plays video games that encourage shooting and killing, but he isn't a murderer or any less sensitive towards humanity.

I agree with Jessica.  It's kind of a boy thing.  Talk to your husband about it to see what he thinks and then let him do what boys do (with a little gentle guidance).  I'm the mother of a 2-year-old Spiderman.

This brings tears to my eyes, I am dreading this day. I have a 3 yr old who still doesn't know what guns or shooting or swords or bad guys are. And he's just started preschool and I know he'll come home some day with violent ideas that we don't have in our house. As much as I know violence in play is normal and appropriate (Playful Parenting does a great job of explaining this) I want to delay it and fill as much of my son's brain as possible with loving, nurturing, kind behaviors before this happens. Hugs.

My son is 3 and has learned the same thing at daycare.  Any time he "shoots" me I warn him that if he shoots the love gun at me again I'm going to smother him in kisses.  He normally does it 2-3 more times and then he's done.  I got this idea from <a href=www.goodreads.com/.../160909.Playful_Parenting">Playful Parenting</a>.  Seems that most little boys are normally obsessed with good/bad and good vs evil.  It all boils down to them being hunters.  You can always tell the teacher what is going on like I did and now the kids are not allowed to "shoot" at school.  The teacher did not even realize that it was going on.

What a great conversation you've started! These things are so important to think about and talk about and I totally agree that it's the daily conversation you have with Archer and your attitude toward life that will shape your son, not one kid (or many kids) at school.

We grew up in the woods, my brother and I, and had many a marathon commando session with war paint and fake guns and attack strategies and whatever, as much as my mom hated it and she would use it to talk about pacifism with us... and you know what? My brother (who name is Justice, and my name is Summer, if that gives you an idea of where my parents' politics and philosophy lie) and I both grew up to peaceful human beings. He's even the co-director of the Oregon Peace Alliance and works with teenagers on non-violent communication skills. My rambling point being, it will all be OK.

Remember, it is easy for adults to take for granted understanding the concepts of good and bad...but think back...how did you learn them? Why is something good, right or kind?  What makes something mean, evil or bad? Where do I fit into this concept...am I good or evil?  Is a certain behavior or attitude always good or always bad?

Although good guy bad guy role playing sounds negative, it's an important developmental exercise.  It helps children reconcile what they learn about right and wrong.  Sure, little kids will use simply defined ideas of good and evil but just as with other learning, this will evolve and display more complexity and understanding over time.

I would say try asking questions that acknowledge the good/bad concepts as Archer currently understands them but give him an opportunity to expand his idea and apply compassion(e.g does the bad guy have a mommy and daddy?  why do you think the bad guy did that? Could the good guy have done something different and still have protected/won without hurting?,etc)

I'm sorry. I got nothing for you since my first one is still only 6 months old, but it reminded of my friend who also raised her boys with similar values - no guns, no bad guys, no killing...ever. And then one morning during breakfast her boys made guns out of toast and started play shooting each other. We all laughed, but she didn't... I kind of get her now.

Oh my. In some ways I can identify. In some ways I cannot. I live in the south. Guns, hunting, fishing, fighting- all are staples here. There have been times when I would cry at the thought of one person hitting another. Just the thought. But then, over time, things change. Hearts get a little tougher. You grow immune, in a way.

And now, you will sometimes find me watching the UFC fights, cheering along with the guys- with the huge crowd at the stadium. Enjoying.

You will sometimes find me shooting my gun at the range. Shooting my bow at tournaments.

But secretly, the time that my husband took me hunting, I purposely pretended that I couldn't find the deer in my scope. I couldn't do it. I lied. And still I pretend, when he talks about it, because I think he might be a little upset. It was a nice sized deer and he could have gotten it if not for me. So, I lie. And I guess my heart isn't stone quite yet.

"Fairy tales do not teach children that dragons exist.  They already know that.  Fairy tales show children that dragons can be slain."

Sorry I can't remember who said that.  But it has stuck with me for years.

And it reminds me of how hard it is being a kid.  And I try to remember that when my three year old worries about the witches coming if we don't lock all the doors.  Although I have no idea where that fear of hers comes from.

I know - I banned guns in my house for the same reason - that was until my son and his friends hit age four and he came back to the house every day from school with these rubbishy male statements i never thought he would. I too freaked out until my mother pointed out it's just play and doesn't necessarily mean anything... You can still teach the good (kind) fight!!!

Much as girls grow up wanting to take care of their loved ones, boys grow up wanting to protect them. You can't stop genes...but you CAN teach socially appropriate behavior. Take the kid to taekwondo. Its a martial art that focuses primarily on defensive (rather than offensive)techniques, as well as on mental and ethical discipline, justice, etiquette, respect, and self-confidence.

We also kept bad guys and guns and swords and and and away from our boy.  We were pretty successful.  Didn't watch violent cartoons, didn't watch violent movies.  Until he started kindergarten.  We got to a point where were holding him back, socially, by limiting what he watched and how he played.  We still don't have any weapons in our house, save for 2 light sabers, but we have allowed the viewing to match his peers a little closer.  It allows him to interact and build connections using what little these kids have at their age.

And, it hasn't changed how kind my boy is to the world around him.  

We have the same type of thing happening in our house with our son.  I have no idea where he heard about shooting people or of bad guys.  He's 3!  It's almost like boys are hard-wired to shoot things.  

Told ya.  I think the best part is where you (figuratively) wanted strangle Harry and/or Harry's parents - I know you didn't mean it literally, but yeah, that's not violent thinking at all.  

I remember when my younger brother, who had also been shielded from violence/guns/swords/weapons of any kind, was served a peanut butter sandwich for lunch. He proceeded to chew the sandwich into the shape of a gun, which he used to "shoot" the imaginary bad guy sitting next to him... in his booster seat. He was 4.

I think as much as you try to protect them, they are given a class in heaven before they get here. At least you can explain WHEN violence is appropriate and when it isn't, and give him good role models who use violence to defend justice and people weaker than them.

A pacifist like you, I have had the exact same moments, where the world teaches my son things I am not ready for him to learn.  We send our son to kindergarten at a Quaker school, where toy weapons are not allowed and kindness is emphasized left and right.  But, still, kids watch TV and movies (I should say OTHER PEOPLE'S kids watch movies, since mine doesn't...at least not yet...) and you can't keep them from knowing about power and violence in our society.  I imagine that kids at this young age don't really GET what this is all about...like that guns kill people, and that death is permanent.  I guess their innocence leaves them free to play about it...right?  

This week, my son told me about a kid at the Quaker school throwing wood chips at him.  He said he ran.  Then, later, he confessed to throwing "just one handful" of wood chips back.  What could I say?  Should he have things thrown at him and not stand up for himself (this is typically the case), or should he practice a little self-protection (which would be something totally new).  In the end, we decided that the best thing for him to do would be to talk to his teacher about throwing wood chips.  In school, they have been making lists of actions that are either "kind" or "safe."  My son thought he could add "don't throw wood chips" under both categories, as a way to both be kind and safe.  Disaster averted...until next week, anyhow...

Thank you for this.  I'm not sure where I stand on all of this yet, but this is one of my biggest fears about raising a child, and specifically raising a boy (my son is 2 1/2).  I appreciate you sharing your feelings.

(Wow, how support group did that sound?  Still, I meant it.)  :o)

oh, God, I *know*.

It's so hard.

My daughter, who is three and a half, told me the other day that she would shoot someone with a gun.  I nearly wrecked the car because I was so shocked, since she has never seen a gun, heard of it at home, or anything related, but she is in day care with other children who have had other experiences.  So I just let it go and said some stock reply about how we only speak nicely about people.  I think it is inevitable they will be exposed and we just keep teaching the alternative view.  And OMG I hope it is enough.

Education trumps ignorance every time. Teaching them about danger and guns is going to teach them to understand in a healthy way, not make them violent themselves. It's better that they hear the truth from you, so they aren't as affected by the trash they hear from their peers. The world we live in comes with beautiful wonders as well as violence. Only teaching them one end of the spectrum is as dangerous as the guns themselves.

Dude.

It's like a punch in the gut, right?

There is good and bad in everyone.

Some people are amazing at reinforcing the goodness in people.  It seems reasonable that those people are ones who believe that there is profound goodness in everyone. Thanks to you, Archer will be one of those people.

The other stuff matters less.

I've been through this with my now 7 and 5 y/o boys, what with the me saying, "No bad, evil, killing things ever!" and my sweet little boys responding by biting sandwiches into the shapes of guns, turning binoculars into guns, using sticks as lightsabers, etc., etc.

I was a parenting failure.

So, I said, "Fuck it.  Let the buggers play with guns."  But with rules, basically don't shoot other people and if they ever see a real gun, get me immediately.

We went to the playground, and I let the boys bring lightsabers.  They were playing with each other, removed from the other children.  A 2 y/o boy was watching them, enamored.  His mom turns to him and said, "Those are bad boys.  We don't play with weapons."  Umm, excuse me?!

As the "Harry's Mom" in this situation, I can see how you want to blame Harry.  But the reality is, most boys, at some point, are in to guns and weapons and that crap, and if it wasn't Harry who introduced Archer to this, it would've been little Caden.  

My husband is fond of saying he grew up fighting bad guys with lightsabers and he has yet to really cut off anyone's arm.

Ugh. I am in the same no-gun, no-sword, no-shoot kind of household. Yet, kids go to school, play with other kids, watch TV and all of a sudden they are playing pirate and stabbing at each other with sticks. It's a natural thing, but it sure doesn't feel right.

I tell my son (who is Archer's age) that it is good to save/protect the good guys; it's always OK to stand up for those in need. But this is make believe, and shooting and killing is not good, no matter the reason. Even the "bad guys" have mommies and daddies that would miss them.

And then I go into the kitchen and choke back tears.

um, hisn name means "one who shoots" (with a bow and arrow).

Ugh, I have also wondered how I'm going to explain the less-than-wonderful, and the downright awful things that exist in the world to my daughter.  We try so hard to protect our kids, but the world (and other kids) will affect them eventually.  I guess all we can do is try to guide them, and provide a decent (if imperfect) example.  

Contextualize.  The world is a violent place and you are not going to be able to shield him from violence, try as you might.  The important thing is to help him understand that violence is a part of life but should be avoided at all costs -- UNLESS one's life is threatened.  You obviously don't want to teach him that kicking and screaming is forbidden if a strange man is dragging him into a van.  At the end of the day, your son will probably get into a fight at some point in his life no matter how well you teach him -- emotions run high and "boys will be boys", it's a fact of life and an unfortunate facet of human nature.

This is hard stuff. My husband hunts and we enjoy the wonderful, wild meat and my son has decided it's his job to be a hunter too, except he's four and he doesn't really get it and now he's learning about Bad Guys at school and it's a whole lot of confusing.

Here's a post I wrote about it:

6512andgrowing.wordpress.com/.../song-for-september

Since the dawn of time, little boys have been practicing to protect their families from those that would harm them. I would be more worried about the little boy that DIDN'T go through a protection phase. You don't need to encourage the gunplay, but to completely ban it only makes it into the coveted game that must be hidden from Mommy.

I was never "anti-gun" in that I allowed water guns from an early age and never cringed when my eldest talked about getting the bad guys. But I DID have a problem with the first realistic toy guns they got, until I realized that my dad, my grandpa, and every other male influence in my life has played toy guns as a little boy. And not a single one of them has ever hurt or shot someone. They HAVE, however, turned out to be great protectors of their families...