Baby Squared

I appreciate your honesty- I think any parent of a toddler, let alone two, would have to be nutty to not get frustrated by their irrationalities and continuous boundary testing.  I was disappointed that the Times article offered no ideas for parenting techniques.  I have recently moved away from time-outs to natural consequences (primarily based on Love & Logic ideas) and feel significantly less stressed.  I just have to be ok with letting Charlie live with the consequences, and make sure I set them up to be ones I can live with, too.  The bedtime potty situation is hard because the most natural consequence would be that they pee in their clothes and stay wet all night unless they can change themselves (after you give them one & only one time to go potty).  I wonder if you could move in the right direction by saying something like, "If you girls want to do/watch/eat "X" tomorrow (X is a normal, highly desired but unnecessary part of their routine), you need to go potty this one time and then stay in bed."  Then, if they don't, no X and you repeat again the next night.  Just a thought.  This has worked for keeping Charlie in bed since we started a week ago.  Good luck!

I feel the same way, and was yelling/feeling guilty just yesterday and to no avail. I'm not sure if it makes me feel better or more mad that my child just laughs when I do! And I only have one, so to me you are even more justified.

Jane, for your own sanity perhaps you should go back to pull ups at night.  We did daytime training completely but waited for a year or so to get rid of the "nighttime pants" as we called them.  You can just dispassionately tell the girls that the doctor told you they should wear "nighttime pants" in case they have to go to the potty at night.  I hope this is helpful...

I yell, relatively often, even. And I fell awful about it. I thought the NYT article got it totally right as far as triggers for yelling--it's usually nothing terribly serious, and it usually happens when I'm stressed out about other things, too. Ugh. I don't have much to offer but empathy, and I have yet to find a good solution/alternative.

Sorry the nighttime potty thing is so frustrating. How long has it been? I hear that two weeks is what it takes to settle a new behavior/learn a new routine, so perhaps you're getting near that mark and something magical will happen? I hope so.

UGH. I totally understand this. My husband has a shorter fuse for yelling than I do, but we are both "guilty" of it. Much like with our dogs, I think yelling at kids is rather pointless, except when there is a need to really startle them or get their attention - like DO NOT TOUCH THAT STOVE - because it just sounds like "barkbarkbark or blahblah yellyell" as far as the dogs or the kid is concerned. It gets them wound up more too. We do use the "If you ever want to watch Fireman Sam or whatever show again you need to sit in the car seat, go take a tubby etc" approach and right now it works. If they care about that thing, that carrot, they will respond. It is when they figure out they can just say "Fine, I don't want to watch Fireman Sam anyway" that we are all screwed.

Thanks for the post; love the blog.  Ditto yelling at a two year old lately..."no" seems to be his favorite word, and I've been responding by raising my voice, then feeling awful about it (especially when he cries afterward).  SIGH.  Hang in there!

I occasionally yell. But that NY Times article was a crock. Spanking is bad. Yelling is bad. Everything else is ineffective. But they never tell you what you're SUPPOSED to do.

Are they old enough to understand a sticker chart?  That helped us a lot when my older one was having trouble going to bed (or maybe it was when she was getting up before 6.) When they stay in bed with no special pleading, they get a sticker, and after some number of stickers, you take them (or ONE of them) out for ice cream.  And I agree, one trip to the potty per evening--once you introduce "trying again," you're sunk.

I cracked up over the comments in that NYT piece.  They were refreshing, for once.  Like, there'd be some sanctimonious jackass who had no kids but who would say that yelling represented a moral weakness, and then there would be 95 responses of people calling that person out, using every style from earnestness to the Socratic method to satire.  

I feel as if too often I either yell or use threats that may be too severe for the situation, which will backfire in the long run.  Ah, well.  All we can do is try our best to improve.

Jane, I am SOOOO in the same place as you right now. I really like Kathaleen's suggestion. I think I'll try it. Maybe instead of a TV show we could try a special food? Not necessarily a sweet, just something they love (like mandarin oranges or fake sausage at breakfast?) That way if only one of them continued asking to go potty when they didn't need to, the other one wouldn't have to suffer her consequences? Also, I try really hard to make no eye contact and no talking when I let them go potty after bedtime. This is SUPPOSED to help, though it is hard to do when you're frustrated, and those moments of yelling have sabotaged this technique for me before! Good luck Jane. This too BETTER pass!!!!

Your potty training experience gave us the courage to have a go with our three-year-old son.  We're still in the thick of it now, on day 4, but so far he really just doesn't mind being wet, and his denial includes waking up soaking in the morning and telling me, "I stayed dry!"

I need to go do more laundry!

On the yelling thing -- I saw something in or about that article that pointed out that volume is often culturally related.  Being partially of Norwegian descent, I was interested to note that such people are often more quiet.  A disapproving "tsk" is used where others might be in full-out yell.  I and my son are both extremely sensitive to tone of voice and volume (which my husband is not so much), so yelling (aside from just trying to be heard) is usually unnecessary except in danger situations.  When my husband raises his voice even slightly above normal levels, my son immediately gets upset.  I yelled yesterday (a bellowed "NO!") to keep him away from the stove, out of fear -- and he nearly lost it.  It worked, though.

And yeah, judicious spanking isn't out of the question, either.  I rather think that some people take "corporal punishment" to the same extreme as the British Navy of old or the Singaporean government.  Apply that to tiny kids and, yes, it's wrong.  But as Tolkien writes, "dogs do not easily forget lumps of rock", and little children may remember an important lesson better for having had a little extra emphasis.

I, too, yell a lot.  My twin girls are about 4 months younger than yours and I do feel your pain.  By the end of a long day, though, I do feel like the only way they hear me is with yelling (and sometimes not even then!)  So I have nothing but empathy for you there.

But, and feel free to ignore this, is there any way somebody besides you or Alistair could put them down one night?  It could be that they truly just dawdle because they are testing you, and they won't dare pull it with someone else.  My girls will absolutely hop to when it's my mother putting them to bed, whereas with my husband and I they are learning a new stall tactic every day.  If they don't do those things with somebody else then that would give you some assurance that it's mostly crying wolf.  Maybe that would at least break the cycle for one night?  Or at least give you one night to not deal with it!

This is a really annoying answer, and forgive me for saying it but most likely this will pass. My kids are 2 and 4 and periodically some terribly irritating new behavior crops up--usually around sleeping/or not sleeping--and I yell, pull my hair out and want to solve it. And then, it disappears. Kids are such weird little creatures to begin with and then add the constant evolving and developing that seems to be their job.

I have also been yelling, lately--usually to tell Coby (2.5 yrs old) to stop doing something. Like you & others, I do feel terribly guilty about it, esp. since there was more yelling than I would have liked in my own family, and I don't want to be that kind of parent. It especially bothers my husband (Chinese), as like Patty said there definitely are differing cultural norms for volume. The biggest problem with the yelling is even as I'm doing it, I can see that it is: a. mostly ineffective at stopping the behavior; b. eroding my "emergency yelling" ability to really stop him when he's actually about to do something really bad, i.e. run into the street; c. causing him to tune me out; and d. damaging our relationship. So I am trying very hard not to do it! Mostly, it is on my most tired/sick days, and with an infant and toddler, almost all days are tired, and we all seem to be getting sick in regular cycles lately. Ugh! Still, not a good excuse. Just a reason.

In terms of alternatives to yelling (or spanking or time outs), read "How to Talk so Kids Will Listen..." (Faber/Mazlish). It doesn't have all the answers, but really helps lay the groundwork for a better relationship and fewer incidents that escalate to yelling/whatever. Good luck.

Wow. Great post and great comments, too.

I'm going to take a slightly different (and possibly more annoying tack) and say that I think you should make sure you're taking good care of yourself. Are you having the chance to run? write? see hubby? friends? other things you like? Yelling is a part of life, even the NYT said it is "ubiquitous." And as a recent poster said, kids are genious at developing new and innovative strategies for driving you bananas. The best you (me, we) can do about inevitable anger and frustration is to try to leave work, multitasking, etc. at work whenever possible, I think. I'm not saying I do this well, myself. But, I do believe that the trick here is to cleave your own bad mood from the unpleasant behavior your child(ren) is doing. So, if I were you, I'd do your darndest to do something nice for yourself and your mood and then work on ignoring the behavior that you don't like. Negative attention from you is unfortunately, just as motivating as positive attention. So the yelling is sadly rewarding, especially at night when all that the girls probably want is your attention, rather than boring-old bed.

And try not to feel guilty about the yelling, we all do it. Really.    

Alright, that's enough from me. Go forth and whisper...

My friend and I just this weekend were saying how we've turned into the screaming banshees. Like you, it's when I'm tired or sick or in a bad mood, when my patience disappears and my tolerance levels plummet.

But... even though I agree with everyone that yelling is not a good or effective response, and even though I don't want to be a yelling mother and am actively working on not yelling, I also don't think it's the worst thing in the world for kids to see that their parents are annoyed and frustrated by their (the kids') behaviour. I'm not saying that constant, belittling yelling is appropriate, but the occasional explosion...? Surely it's better for kids to experience and deal with this as part of a loving relationship - where you can explain what triggered the yell and say that you're sorry - than for them to have no clue that their actions can annoy other people - people who may be way less kind if they explode? And as much as I agree that it's more effective to stay calm, the reality is that most of us can't always manage this (well, I can't), and I'm not sure it's healthy for either parents or children if the parents hide their feelings when they are fed up. Plus, isn't a grumpy, fed up parent who may be less inclined to grant treats (like an extra book at bedtime) a natural consequence of annoying behaviour...?

Sorry for the length of this... in short, I guess I'm saying don't feel too guilty for being human!!

And just to say, I also recommend "how to talk so kids will listen..." , as well as "1-2-3 magic" - it's a good tool for staying calm.

We had the same bedtime potty problems in our house a few months ago.  I tried various things to fix the problem - sticker charts, treats, etc.  The one thing that finally worked was a 'potty pass'.  Each girl gets a laminated potty pass next to their bed that they can use only once and then it's gone for the night.  If they choose to use it 10 seconds after I leave the room that's their choice.  Within a week they weren't using it at all.  Which cut down on my yelling, at least a little.

I also had to tape the light switch so it was in the off position when I left the room when they first moved to big girl beds.

Hi, I've been lurking on your blog for a while (it's great, by the way), and I don't yet have toddlers, so take this with a grain of salt.  But since it sounds like you have a little kiddie potty, and they are only claiming to need to pee, do they actually need your help?  I'm wondering if you could institute a "one tuck-in" per child rule, and if they need to pee after that, they do so by themselves (perhaps "because they are big girls that know how to use the potty").  I'm thinking that if you can remove the parental attention that comes with additional bathroom requests, claiming to need to pee gets a lot less interesting.

Great comments. I don't know about you, but I was yelled at plenty as a kid, and spanked as well, and I turned out just fine. That said, when I yell at my girls, it feels like parenting fail. My advice for the bedtime chaos is positive reinforcement, just as Kathleen suggested. If Alastair agrees to enforce it in the morning, the girls may see that their behavior (or misbehavior) has rewards (or consequences). I'm anticipating similar behavior from my girls when we transition to big girl beds. I've had good luck telling my girls simply what I expect from them prior to doing it. Anyway, I know how much the girls love Curious George, so if you try it, keep us posted!

I would argue that your girls are not ready to use the toilet on their own, and one idea might be to let go of trying to "get" them to use the potty on your terms even if that means backtracking. My son is three and no where near potty trained, though when he wants to, he can and does use it. But he's still in diapers full time. My daughter was totally potty trained by three without "rewards" or "charts"--just her own desire to do it. So each child is different, I think. When they are in their twenties no one will be asking them when they learned to use a toilet on their own.

Ditto for bedtime. Maybe they are glad to be with you and want one more story, one more hug, and not a sense of their time with you being rushed. Is it so awful for children to exert their free will, their own desires? Sometimes the trade-off is less time for us and that is the struggle I feel, too.

I know that I yell when I feel that I, myself, am lost in the intensity of parenting and not getting any time of my own. When I do yell, I apologize to my kids and we have a laugh about all of us sometimes being crabby appletons.

Jane, We have a 2 and a half year old daughter, and she has her certain behaviors that drive me up the wall. A month or so ago, she was driving me absolutely INSANE - just being sassy and talking back. I yelled. I prayed. At one point, I actually washed her mouth out with soap (which made her, inexplicably, laugh)! I really felt horrible about that last one, and didn't want to get crazier about reprimanding her, but nothing seemed to be working, and I was so upset! So I decided to try a chart. I bought a "personal responsibility" chart by melissa and doug. It has days of the week, magnets with smileys, and space to put 6 or 7 different tasks that have to be done each day (brush your teeth, share, etc - and two blank ones!! so you could make a "stay in bed" or whatever). We made it so that if she gets and keeps all her smileys all day, she gets a treat (in our case, she gets to watch an episode of word world). If she gets all her smileys ALL WEEK, we take a trip to the cupcake shop for a mini-cupcake. I was skeptical about this, but it has worked REALLY REALLY well, especially after the first day or so. And now she loves it! She talks about getting her smileys and is eager to even brush her teeth, which she hates, in order to get her beloved smiley. Give it a try!!

Jane, I just wanted to give you a quick update to say that I used a Maisie video (which they love) in the morning as incentive for my 3 year olds to stay in bed and and go to sleep instead of making multiple potty trips, and it WORKED! (knock REALLY hard on wood) Two night in a row! I hope you've found something that's worked. People have given some really great suggestions. YAY for blogs! Yours is my favorite!

You are definitely not alone in the yelling. I'm reading 'How To Raise Your Kids Without Raising Your Voice' which, unlike the article on the weekend, does give very good steps for avoiding becoming a screaming banshee while providing effective discipline.

the best advice I was ever given regarding potty training was given by the former-teachers-turned-daycare-owners at my son's daycare. Here it is:

NEVER use pull-ups; they send mixed messages which confuse children of this age and just prolong the potty training experience. Either they are ready for overnight training or they aren't. So it's underwear (or just PJs) for yes, traditional diapers for no.

I waited for 'the signs', asked if they were ready every morning and, when they said yes, ended up potty training both of my children at around 2 yrs, 9 months. They were about 90% trained by the end of one week.

I'm grateful to those fabulous women to this day!

Good luck!

I NEVER YELL WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?! and I definitely only yell "serenity now" 4 times per day. maybe 5. or 8. I hate the yelling. it makes me feel horrible. but some times I am like what else can I do? I am all about the bribery too. yelling and bribery. mom of the year. my twins are almost 3. newly potty trained in last few months. new freedom of toddler beds. and I am broken. broken! I'm like why did I ever complain about diapers? diapers are easy! and I didn't have to take two two-year-olds into a target bathroom. Three times. but I digress. I clearly am with you. it has gotten better in the last few weeks. which makes this too shall pass sound more realistic...

Closet yeller  here.  I was going to say to read that article but you already posted it. I read it and it is so me.  I don't use any kind of violent physical punishment, but I do yell when my temper reaches the end of its rope.  With terrible 2s it reaches the end of the rope a lot.  My kids kinda don't seem phased by my crazy yelling though although they will give me their attention when I do.  

I am at a constant using the louder more serious but irritated voice with them and then sometimes I just start yelling like a madwoman.  I actually have cursed once or twice at them.  I feel awful for it, but it is what it is.  A Dammit or a hell.  As in "Sit the hell down for God's sake!" After 20 times of telling them to sit down nicely.  Trying to work on it.  I found getting down on their level and looking into their eyes is the most effective, but it doesn't feasibly work to stop to do that every time with two kids.  

I can't bring myself to strike them, but I can bring myself to yell.  Mine are with me 24/7 except on Grammy weekends.

I have one tip for you: duct tape the light switch.  I duct tape theirs in the on position and just leave the closet light on and turn off the overheard light by the fan switch.  That way they can't switch them off and on.  They also make little child safety switches for them to reach it themselves but you can lock it in one position as well.  Eric has been tall enough to reach the lights for awhile now.  

You have a partner in yelling my friend.

I would suggest going to diapers at night again.  I plan on daytime training but waiting till like 4 or until they just stop wetting at night to nighttime train.  I will just tell them you get ONE potty time after bed and that is it. After that if you have to go you have to do it in your diaper. We won't come get you.  Then hold to it.  They will tantrum, but so what?  With toddler bed training and passy getting rid of around here the screaming for hours is just not phasing me anymore!  haha

I want to read that book someone suggested about parenting without yelling.  I need that!  

I have been doing this thing that has worked some for diaper changes. Eric won't come get his changed easily.  He tantrums and resists.  Well instead of yelling and fighting him I have just started calmly saying "Okay then let's throw a blue car in the trash."  Then he gives me a "Oh no" look and I say "Well which one is it?  Blue car in trash or diaper change?"  He has always picked diaper change.  I wil throw one away and deal with the aftermath if I have to.

Same thing for getting out the door with them and them not coming when I call to put on socks, shoes, etc.  I was taking them to the playground and I would ask them twice to come. After that instead of yelling I just lay down in the floor and say "Okay no playground."  Then they come over and do as I asked them the first two times.  I think the passive resistance thing and the taking away toys thing works better than yelling and I don't feel like a bad mom for them.  

hi...me again.  I have one that trained herself to be dry at night at around 3 and  even whilst drinking huge amounts of water and sick..she still hasn't had an accident. The other, we have explained to both, has a body that is different and just isn't ready. So she sleeps with a diaper..(we used pull ups only in the day for trips in the car). She is Ok with it but if she pees before she goes to sleep (and man..that kid can talk to herself for HOURS) she will take it off and toss it across the room. So far it hasn't landed on her sister...but it means she needs another diaper and sometimes I forget,  with the obvious consquence that there is another night wake up call for me. (you think I would learn from the natural consequences!!!). However startling progress was made when she changed her own Pjs and climbed into our bed without waking anybody. That works for me. On any given night at least one will be in our bed, but if that one sneaks in quietly without waking anyone that is the same as a full nights sleep for me! On the other hand a 1am yell/scream/cry go fetch and carry..UGH.

As for the yelling...OF COURSE I BLOODY YELL! there comes a point when it is just so exasperating (S?) that it seems to be the only thing left to try.  Especially when they get to the age where they will deliberately provoke each other. Actually  what works for me best is to withdraw attention...tell them you are getting angry and need a time out to cool down. I go to my room , LOCK the door and  go lalalalala for 15 mins whilst they go beserk at the door. I know that it is probably setting them up for therapy ..but it certainly helps me to cool down, because I get angry, really angry.  I have one heck of a bad temper.

You have had heaps of great input...  right now I wish I was just dealing with a bedtime battle. My girls  have the swine flu...it's not pretty. After 48 hours I am getting so frustated, and also anxious that I might be getting ill too. At least a wireless laptop is saving my sanity this week...that and the desire for my girls to know that mummy won't lose her temper when they NEED me most.

Your latest post reminded me that I'd better read the comments after my comment!  No matter how much I hate the facebook emails for every comment after my comments, I totally need that for blogs to compensate for the loss of part of my brain that I birthed out nearly three years ago.

Consequences with twins is sooo much harder. I didn't even think about the fact that they'd potentially both miss out on a show.  Have you tried anything different and found something to work?  I imagine that the sticker chart or responsibility board ideas would work well for twins.  Cheering you on from afar! ...but trying not to yell...

I have twin girls, two and a half.  We recently found out I am pregnant again and something in their little heads just snapped.  They are chewing on everything, even the timeout chair!  They are doing the exact opposite of what we say just to see if we are serious.  If we tell one not to do something, the other will do it just seconds later, just to test us.  And of course they egg each other on, running through the apartment screaming and yelling.  

My husband and I are, or use to be, very quiet and rational people, but lately we feel like all we do is yell!  Of course I don't do it because I think it will help discipline them, I'm just at the end of my rope!  I'm glad that there are other people that feel the same way and I'm not alone.  Thank you to everyone with ideas, I'm up for trying anything at the moment.